Week 8 - Tunisia F7 ($15,000) - Hammamet (clay)

freerider · Futures level

Week 8 - Tunisia F7 ($15,000) - Hammamet (clay)

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Bugger!

L32: Martín Cuevas (URU) WR 610 defeated (Q/5) Alex Ward WR 408 by 3-6 6-2 6-3 cry

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Probably worn out from qualifying

indiana · Tennis legend

freerider wrote:
Genuinely interested in the reasoning why people are so against high ranked players in the qualifying draw? whats the difference between getting drawn against a player ranked 500 in the qualifying rounds and getting drawn against a player ranked 500 in the first round of the main draw? Should unranked junior number 1s also be banned from entering qualifying for futures because they will beat the opposition in qualifying too easily?

Overall I tend to think if you are good enough you'll make it anyway so that is one reason that I am not overconcerned about the odd qualifying match against a 'ringer', but I do see the points of view and to some extent share them.

One thing about being drawn against that player in qualifying and losing is it leaves you with precisely zilch prize money. Progressing to the main draw R1, and then very possibly meeting a pretty high ranked player, is of course hardly greatly rewarding but you do get prize money so there is a potential monetary issue. There is also for say the player beginning on the senior circuit with qualifying for futures their number of matches and build up of experience potentially brought to an abrupt halt in QR1 by a relatively very highly ranked player. Money and number of matches both potentially effected, hardly ideal, with each to different extents mattering to different players at different career stages.

Re the unranked junior #1 or indeed other under ( senior ) ranked player for whatever reasons, potentially meeting these players comes with the territory of entry lists based on objective ranking lists. With such players around they dont need the additional ( that's additional not instead of ) presence of actual much higher ranked players who really belong in the main draw if anywhere. That seems a bit of a red herring to me.

As I say, I wouldn't exactly go to the barricades on this one, but it can muck up a player's week in one early go as they try to make some progress and even qualify and earn a little dough, and it is generally avoidable, and could actually be made mandatorily avoidable, without any huge distress to the high ranked player missing out for one week even if they had legitimate excuse for their situation. And if no real excuse they'ed maybe make more sure that they were properly entered if there was no alternative scenic route.

Anyway you did ask ...

Oakland2002 · All-time great

I love the fact that anyone can sign into qualifying, it is by definition a qualifying tournament. If you are good enough you qualify for the main event. You earn that right by beating the other qualifiers. That is about as equitable as you can get.

You are never going to make a career on the main tour based on players you did or didn't beat in futures qualifying, indeed realistically those that are going to make it are the under ranked or not at all ranked juniors that rip up qualifying and are done with it by the time they are 16/17.

If your rank is good enough to allow you the privilege of direct entry you would be a fool not to use it, there is no advantage in terms of capacity to win the tournament or indeed just some cash by going the longer route but that is something different altogether.

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Wednesday 22nd of February 2017 01:59:24 PM

freerider · Futures level

its an interesting debate but i definitely side with Oakland here

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

freerider wrote:
Genuinely interested in the reasoning why people are so against high ranked players in the qualifying draw? whats the difference between getting drawn against a player ranked 500 in the qualifying rounds and getting drawn against a player ranked 500 in the first round of the main draw? Should unranked junior number 1s also be banned from entering qualifying for futures because they will beat the opposition in qualifying too easily?

The difference between the Qualis and the MD is that in the first round of the MD you get a cheque.

And are playing for a point. And (if +H) you get your board and lodging. It's not the same.

And I don't agree with the 'no rules makes it equitable' idea.

Andy Murray can't enter an ITF. Not even if he wants to .

Nor can the 99th player in the world. Not if he wants to get match experience. Or it's his home tournament. Or whatever.

Nor even can the guy ranked 149th in the world (unless he gets a wildcard) (all in rule 3 of the Pro Circuit Regs)

So the ITF accepts (quite rightly, in my view) that certain tournaments are suitable for certain players and not others.

I realise that the qualis are the same tournament as the main draw but I think the same principle applies because in terms of money, ranking points etc. it's not the same competition.

If the main draw goes down to 700, say, a player who is ranked 400 should not be in the qualis. It's not 'suitable', in the same way the main draw is not suitable for the 99th guy.

And it's hardly a hardship. You only have to enter a couple of weeks beforehand, it's hardly major planning.

And, if you're a little late, and if the tournament really wants you they'll give you a wildcard. If they don't, then it's no loss to the tournament.

And if you've left it to the very last minute, so there's no wildcard for you, even if the tournament did want you, then bad luck. There are deadlines, that's what they are for. Just play a different event next week.

freerider · Futures level

but if you are seeded outside Q8 you are not seeded to qualify and get a cheque anyway. Theoretically you would lose to the last main draw acceptance who would have been Q1 had (i.e. Alex Ward) been in the main draw originally.

I get the fact that futures are not enterable for players ranked 150 or lower but c'moooon we are not talking about top 100 players turning up in qualies, we are talking about players generally ranked 500-1000 who have had a last minute change in schedule. The kind of guys you would face in the main draw anyway and who are playable and beatable to a strong futures qualifying level player. Might I also add that the current cut for Canada F1 next week (admittedly a 25k event) is around the 500 mark. After SEs cleared Filip Peliwo (wr520) will potentially be the top qualies seed.

Oakland2002 · All-time great

I think there is a major flaw in your argument which is why the rules are as they are, and why the present situation is equitable.

I don't think you can extrapolate rules that apply to players who can generally make a living out of he game i.e. Those in the top 150 in the world to those that can't. The rest are generally all in the same boat in that they existence on the challengers/futures tour is hand to mouth unless heavily subsidised by a major tennis federation or independently (A1 pharmaceuticals )

The futures tour exists to grow talent by exposing it to the reality of competitive tennis, a tough draw all be it in qualifying or the main draw is part of that reality, as is the expense and inconvenience of traveling to be thumped.

There is little or no point in sanitising how hard becoming an elite professional tennis player is, resilence and capacity to go again are fundamental.

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Wednesday 22nd of February 2017 02:28:42 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

freerider wrote:
but if you are seeded outside Q8 you are not seeded to qualify and get a cheque anyway. Theoretically you would lose to the last main draw acceptance who would have been Q1 had (i.e. Alex Ward) been in the main draw originally.

I get the fact that futures are not enterable for players ranked 150 or lower but c'moooon we are not talking about top 100 players turning up in qualies, we are talking about players generally ranked 500-1000 who have had a last minute change in schedule. The kind of guys you would face in the main draw anyway and who are playable and beatable to a strong futures qualifying level player. Might I also add that the current cut for Canada F1 next week (admittedly a 25k event) is around the 500 mark. After SEs cleared Filip Peliwo (wr520) will potentially be the top qualies seed.

I'd still suggest that yes a player may be unseeded in qualifying and so "not seeded to qualify" but they still I think deserve a better shot than potentially getting fed to the relative lions.

In this case both the #1 qualifying seed (Alex) and the #2 have been late additions, WR 408 and WR 545 respectively. "Normal" seeds 3 and 4 were WRs 773 and 834. Yes, other futures may have generally higher qualifying seeds, but players also make their tournament choices on, among other things, the expected level of competition.

To be honest, this was hardly the worst example given Alex was understandably still below par and the q2 seed actually got knocked out in qualifying. But there are more extreme cases with higher ranked infiltrators.

I just don't share the enthusiasm expressed in other posts for open late entry to qualifying ( if places are available ) for any players ranked lower than WR 150 and, again, it's hardly going to be such a disaster for the high ranked player to miss a week that they likely had some doubt about anyway, while leaving the qualifiers with opponents closer in ranking to themselves.

I agree that futures is a tough world to be fought through and sorts guys out, and as I said the really good will relatively sail through and beyond, but that doesn't mean it need be made tougher than it already naturally is.

freerider · Futures level

I'm not enthusiastic about seeing higher ranked players in the qualifying draw I just don't see the problem with it. Boohoo I got an unfair draw :( I'm going to alert the Tennis police because I don't think I should have to play a player with this ranking until I have received a cheque for $100.

Shhh · Challenger level

Its been an interesting debate until this point. Always good to hear other peoples views and their thought process behind them. Thanks all!