Davis Cup 2017 World Group QF - France v Great Britain - Rouen - 7-9 April

Smudge226 · Strong Club Player

Davis Cup 2017 World Group QF - France v Great Britain - Rouen - 7-9 April

Spectator · All-time great

I thought that, too, at one point. And then I plotted where people were ranked relative to their age peers. My recollection is that a very quick survey suggested they didn't have quite the same depth ... but they're actually still quite strong.

JonH · All-time great

Coup Droit wrote:
JonH, just to take slight issue on one point, it is a popular misconception that French players are 'brought up on clay'.

Those in the south do (generally) play quite a lot of clay tennis growing up but very few clubs in the middle or north have clay courts (the weather is just too cold in winter and the upkeep too expensive)

It's a constant problem for the FFT - their Grand Slam is on clay and yet most of their players are intrinsically hard court players. Overall, French players have done better at Wimbledon than they have at Roland Garros !

Hi CD - talking of misconceptions or otherwise. I wondered if you had any thoughts on the perception that France seems to produce flamboyant and technically able flair players who do well and are very watchable but seem to end up peaking in the range of maybe 10-20 in the rankings and being perennial QF level players at slams. Through the ages, Noah, Leconte, Forget, Pioline, Grosjean, Clement, Tsonga, Monfils, Simon Gasquet all seem to fall into this category and even Pouille now seems to be following the pattern. I cant think of anyone who has really bucked the trend, maybe Yannick Noah aside. What is it about the French system that leads to this and what stops them from moving to that next level that their talent seems to suggest they should?

JonH · All-time great

Spectator wrote:
I thought that, too, at one point. And then I plotted where people were ranked relative to their age peers. My recollection is that a very quick survey suggested they didn't have quite the same depth ... but they're actually still quite strong.

If we look at the Nations Rankings that ABB produces, France is actually ranked #2 on top 10 players averages just a tadge below Spain. And for all averages outside of top 6 to 10 ie top 11 onwards or top 5, they are the strongest. So France actually relatively seems to be strong in reality still, although maybe there is something that the talent generally is spreading across more nations than ever and so countries like Spain, France, US etc that often piled high the players are in fact still top of the tree but just spread more thinly as other countries place one, two , three players higher up eg GB with 4 in top 100 as an example??

the addict · Tennis legend

Eleanor Crooks on Twitter

A change for the French today, with Jeremy Chardy replacing Gilles Simon, so it will be Pouille and Chardy in the singles

Smudge226 · Strong Club Player

JonH wrote:
Spectator wrote:
I thought that, too, at one point. And then I plotted where people were ranked relative to their age peers. My recollection is that a very quick survey suggested they didn't have quite the same depth ... but they're actually still quite strong.
If we look at the Nations Rankings that ABB produces, France is actually ranked #2 on top 10 players averages just a tadge below Spain. And for all averages outside of top 6 to 10 ie top 11 onwards or top 5, they are the strongest. So France actually relatively seems to be strong in reality still, although maybe there is something that the talent generally is spreading across more nations than ever and so countries like Spain, France, US etc that often piled high the players are in fact still top of the tree but just spread more thinly as other countries place one, two , three players higher up eg GB with 4 in top 100 as an example??
Interesting and this trend is evermore wide spread. After the wall came down eastern europe had a sea change in sporting endeavour. GB and Europe struggled after the wars. Looking through winners of the DC from the start is informative. Also I suspect that French colonies will have bolstered the French ranks to some degree as with football but the modern trend is for those players to play for their country of birth. Wealth and opportunity are a huge factor with tennis for ovs reasons and the french, yanks and aussies haven't won DC for years despite having won it so many times. When I looked into this I found that the DC holders played in the following years final prior to 1973 and since europe was broke after the war its no wonder that the US and Aussies cleaned up. In this period.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

JonH wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
JonH, just to take slight issue on one point, it is a popular misconception that French players are 'brought up on clay'.

Those in the south do (generally) play quite a lot of clay tennis growing up but very few clubs in the middle or north have clay courts (the weather is just too cold in winter and the upkeep too expensive)

It's a constant problem for the FFT - their Grand Slam is on clay and yet most of their players are intrinsically hard court players. Overall, French players have done better at Wimbledon than they have at Roland Garros !
Hi CD - talking of misconceptions or otherwise. I wondered if you had any thoughts on the perception that France seems to produce flamboyant and technically able flair players who do well and are very watchable but seem to end up peaking in the range of maybe 10-20 in the rankings and being perennial QF level players at slams. Through the ages, Noah, Leconte, Forget, Pioline, Grosjean, Clement, Tsonga, Monfils, Simon Gasquet all seem to fall into this category and even Pouille now seems to be following the pattern. I cant think of anyone who has really bucked the trend, maybe Yannick Noah aside. What is it about the French system that leads to this and what stops them from moving to that next level that their talent seems to suggest they should?

Ok, not particularly scientific, but in terms of good and bad:

French tennis puts a lot of emphasis on technique - a lot of excellent coaches (who themselves have very good technique, in a virtuous circle sort of way):in order for a club to qualify for FFT help, the club's coach HAS to be a certain level (both of coach and player) which equates to about LTA 4.1 or 3.2 (approx). So even if your kid signs up for group lessons at the village club, they will have have someone coaching them who is about British Tour qualis level, minimum.

A lot of free coaching for all levels of detected players (and players are detected at very local level right up to national level, so even the best village kid will probably get some extra coaching).

The French are snobby about technique - they've got a little better since the old President who was extreme but it's still rather purist.

So there's no surprise that technically they tend to be very sound.

And because so many people play tennis you get the pick of talented kids.

But because tennis is ranked highly, tons play and a lot of help given, a lot of the top players tend to think they're part of 'God's chosen few'. And arrogance tends to breed lack of grit. So, in my view, French tennis players have a tendency to also be rather lazy - maybe it's too easy, too laid out on a plate.... (doesn't apply to people like Simon but he came from the 'outside' and isn't typical). In fact, there's a slight element of that in the French in general (sorry, sweeping statements and all that).

And appearances matter - hence, the French players like to have style and flair - it's cool, it's like the French adoration of the 'intellectual' - and giving the appearance of grafting like a dog is not the right image.

Anyway, it's only an overview but it's certainly a huge thorn in the side of the FFT that they haven't had a champion for so long, and nothing seems to be looking like changing that.

JonH · All-time great

Simon has withdrawn and being replaced by Chardy -from the BBC below:

Gilles Simon will be replaced by Jeremy Chardy in the French team for this weekend's Davis Cup quarter-final against Great Britain.

World number 68 Chardy joins Lucas Pouille, Nicolas Mahut and Julien Benneteau in Yannick Noah's team.

In the absence of the injured Andy Murray, the GB team is made up of British number two Dan Evans, Kyle Edmund, and doubles specialists Jamie Murray and Dom Inglot.

The match is on indoor clay in Rouen.

France are also without the injured Gael Monfils, world number 10 Jo Wilfried-Tsonga, who is short of match fitness, and Richard Gasquet, who is recovering from appendix surgery.

Don't appear to be any head to heads, but makes tie a little bit more interesting

JonH · All-time great

Fognini has dropped out for Italy, making Belgium clear favourites in that tie.

For the GB v France tie, they are showing the squad as Pouille, Mahut, Chardy and Benneteau.

Either way, Kyle is possibly a favourite against Mahut or Chardy and suddenly the task looks like something we can at least expect a reasonable fight in. And you never know Dan Evans might surprise us all!

-- Edited by JonH on Wednesday 5th of April 2017 02:57:41 PM

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Also from the Beeb's rolling sports news page:

Edmund up for the clay-court fight

Kyle Edmund believes his clay-court form is good enough to cause some upsets in Great Britain's Davis Cup quarter-final against France in Rouen.

The 22-year-old won both his singles rubbers against Serbia at the same stage in in last season's competition, which was the last time he played on the surface.

"I definitely played some good tennis there so there are lots of good memories," said the world number 47.

Great Britain - who are without world number one Andy Murray - are underdogs against a French team that includes Jeremy Chardy and Lucas Pouille.

The first singles rubber is on Friday afternoon.

You can't fault the lad's self-belief!

JonH · All-time great

Stircrazy wrote:
Also from the Beeb's rolling sports news page:
Edmund up for the clay-court fight
Kyle Edmund believes his clay-court form is good enough to cause some upsets in Great Britain's Davis Cup quarter-final against France in Rouen.
The 22-year-old won both his singles rubbers against Serbia at the same stage in in last season's competition, which was the last time he played on the surface.
"I definitely played some good tennis there so there are lots of good memories," said the world number 47.
Great Britain - who are without world number one Andy Murray - are underdogs against a French team that includes Jeremy Chardy and Lucas Pouille.
The first singles rubber is on Friday afternoon.
You can't fault the lad's self-belief!

I am starting to be a believer!

Spectator · All-time great

Well, whether we believe or not, as various players have pointed out over time, the player him/herself has to walk on the court believing that he/she has a chance, or might as well give up at the outset! But actually, I'd likewise give him a shot, so ...

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Jeremy Chardy blows very hot and cold - a very gifted player who was taught to maximise your strengths and ignore your weaknesses - so he would spend whole training blocks only hitting forehands and serves on the theory that that would win him the point before he even had to hit a backhand so why bother practicing your backhand?
I like to watch him, and he's a nice guy too. But often loses matches you think he should win.

Lucas is so young/new to this level. Came out of nowhere really, when everyone was talking about Thiem and Kyrgios et al. And had a dreadful start to the year: I'm not sure he's quite assumed the stature of where he's ranked. But has got it back together again a little in the last month. Half-Finnish and a laid back, unassuming sort of young bloke, who works hard (must be the Finnish blood coming out

) and lots of talent too.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Stuart FraserVerified account @stu_fraser 4h4 hours ago

Stadium now three quarters full of kids and parents watching France practice. Yannick Noah hitting balls into the crowd. Good work by FFT!

pbs.twimg.com/media/C8pcaWyXcAInU8k.jpg

Spectator · All-time great

Finns are doing well! Of all the young (non-GB) highly-ranked players, Pouille seems one of the most pleasant - someone it would be really nice to see do well ... except in this instance. Chardy/Benneteau/Mahut is a really strong combination, given that Chardy and Benneteau have played together, as well as Benneteau and Mahut having played together. So Pouille is presumably one of their singles players on both days, but with the others, they have the option of using people in either singles or doubles, depending on what's going on 'on the day'.