Week 33 - ATP Masters 1000 - Western & Southern Open - Cincinnati, OH (hard)

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Week 33 - ATP Masters 1000 - Western & Southern Open - Cincinnati, OH (hard)

indiana · Tennis legend

I would agree that I don't see an Olympic title as of less value than an individual conventional Slam and I am not actually sure that that differs from the mainstream view and certainly not from the leading players' view.

It is the accumulation of Slam titles that becomes particularly noteworthy ( and difficult to say how that is / will be balanced ), but an Olympic title vs an individual Slam title - no I really don't think these days it is generally considered less valuable. I do think the legacy of an Olympic title ( or two

) will indeed be greatly recognised and that this is already widely appreciated.

Spectator · All-time great

The young players are good. Thiem's already top 10 and barring injury or unforeseen circumstances, Zverev, Coric, Kyrgios seem headed in that direction (well, with Kyrgios, one never knows .....) With some of the others, it's just too early to tell: Fritz did well in Challengers late last year/early this year, hasn't actually done so well recently, but clearly has huge potential. Jared Donaldson has looked very solid in the bits I've caught of highlights from his recent forays (and judging from the scores). Halys can be brilliant or awful. Shapovalov, from the bits I've seen of his Challenger matches, looks a major talent. Beyond that, so hard to tell: from what little I've seen of them in Challengers, Kozlov, Tiafoe, DuckHee Lee, et al have evident weaknesses that better players are going to take apart - though they certainly have time to improve! (Haven't seen much of Nishioka or Khachanov or Ymer)

So I'm actually inclined to think that the 25-27s are about to have a little bit of time in the sun. AM and Djokovic are clearly the best two at present. Federer and Nadal are struggling with injury. That means that the thing that has maintained the stranglehold of the 'Big Four' - that everyone else generally had to get through at least two of them to win a tournament - may not be the case any longer. The rest of their generation (Berdych, Tsonga, etc) don't seem as if they're going to make their breakthrough - though I'd love to see Gael Monfils - who has looked super in the bits I've seen of his recent play - realise his potential and win some major tournaments, and Stan Wawrinka is never to be counted out. Which leaves some openings for Raonic, Nishikori, and Cilic - all of whom feel more ready than the younger ones. While I don't like his style of play, Raonic's year has been stellar - would not be at all surprised to see him in the top 4 by year's end.

Oops. And of course, there is THE 27 (just) year old, JMDP. If he comes back at full power, life could be very interesting indeed.

-- Edited by Spectator on Friday 19th of August 2016 06:52:53 AM

-- Edited by Spectator on Friday 19th of August 2016 06:55:19 AM

-- Edited by Spectator on Friday 19th of August 2016 06:58:37 AM

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
R3: (1) Andy Murray WR 2 beat Kevin Anderson (RSA) WR 24 (CH 10 10/15) 6-3 6-2

That was easier than I expected! Better still: time spent on court so far - two hours 58 minutes & seven seconds. wink

Helen40 · Grand Slam Champion

That's encouraging. I hope his tank is filling up now with the relatively easy matches. Has Mr Lendl made an appearance here?

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Miriambee wrote:
Nadal on his way out, 6-1 and 5-2 squashed totally by Coric in 1 hour.
now gone, 6-1 6-3 lucky for Berdych.

Arguably not, given that Cilic (12) beat him by 6-3 4-6 6-4! wink

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

QF: (5) Jean-Julien Rojer & Horia Tecau (NED/ROU) CR 25 (14+11) defeated (3) Jamie Murray & Bruno Soares (BRA) CR 11 (4+7) by 4-6 6-2 [11-9] cry

TMH · Futures qualifying

Spectator wrote:
The young players are good. Thiem's already top 10 and barring injury or unforeseen circumstances, Zverev, Coric, Kyrgios seem headed in that direction (well, with Kyrgios, one never knows .....) With some of the others, it's just too early to tell: Fritz did well in Challengers late last year/early this year, hasn't actually done so well recently, but clearly has huge potential. Jared Donaldson has looked very solid in the bits I've caught of highlights from his recent forays (and judging from the scores). Halys can be brilliant or awful. Shapovalov, from the bits I've seen of his Challenger matches, looks a major talent. Beyond that, so hard to tell: from what little I've seen of them in Challengers, Kozlov, Tiafoe, DuckHee Lee, et al have evident weaknesses that better players are going to take apart - though they certainly have time to improve! (Haven't seen much of Nishioka or Khachanov or Ymer)

So I'm actually inclined to think that the 25-27s are about to have a little bit of time in the sun. AM and Djokovic are clearly the best two at present. Federer and Nadal are struggling with injury. That means that the thing that has maintained the stranglehold of the 'Big Four' - that everyone else generally had to get through at least two of them to win a tournament - may not be the case any longer. The rest of their generation (Berdych, Tsonga, etc) don't seem as if they're going to make their breakthrough - though I'd love to see Gael Monfils - who has looked super in the bits I've seen of his recent play - realise his potential and win some major tournaments, and Stan Wawrinka is never to be counted out. Which leaves some openings for Raonic, Nishikori, and Cilic - all of whom feel more ready than the younger ones. While I don't like his style of play, Raonic's year has been stellar - would not be at all surprised to see him in the top 4 by year's end.
Oops. And of course, there is THE 27 (just) year old, JMDP. If he comes back at full power, life could be very interesting indeed.

-- Edited by Spectator on Friday 19th of August 2016 06:52:53 AM

-- Edited by Spectator on Friday 19th of August 2016 06:55:19 AM

-- Edited by Spectator on Friday 19th of August 2016 06:58:37 AM

Great post, and I agree completely.

We tend to bemoan Andy's misfortune of being in the same generation of three of the greatest ever, but Berdych, Tsonga and Ferrer have fared far worse in this fading era. If they'd been born 5-10 years either side they'd probably have won the odd slam here or there. Certainly no weaker than the likes of Roddick or Hewitt, and far better than some of the players who won slams around the turn of the century.

Murray has done extremely well to be so competitive with the other three and finally break through in 2012 to join them atop the grand slam pedestal. Whilst his slam count is lower than many of the other greats, I think his grand slam final count, Masters titles and now 2 Olympic gold medals (of which two of the great three have never even won once!) put him up there amongst them.

Out of interest, would anyone put him in the top 10 greatest of the open era? There are clearly the other 'big 4', Borg, McEnroe, Becker, Sampras and Agassi all up there, but Murray has to be there, thereabouts. Hopefully he can win a few more slams in the remaining years of his career and put himself there without any shadow of a doubt.

goldenboy · Club Coach

TMH wrote:
Out of interest, would anyone put him in the top 10 greatest of the open era? There are clearly the other 'big 4', Borg, McEnroe, Becker, Sampras and Agassi all up there, but Murray has to be there, thereabouts. Hopefully he can win a few more slams in the remaining years of his career and put himself there without any shadow of a doubt.

Andy's coach may have a view on that

theemptyvessel · Club Coach

Andy wins 4 and 4. Time for another go around with Raonic and on these fast courts that might be a big ask for our tiring hero.

indiana · Tennis legend

QF: (1) Andy Murray WR 2 beat Bernard Tomic (AUS) WR 21 (CH 17 01/16) 6-4 6-4

SF: (1) Andy Murray WR 2 vs (4) Milos Raonic (CAN) WR 6 (CH 4 05/15)
H2H: 7-3 including last 6 to Andy, last one was quite good

Scheduled for not before 7 pm local, midnight BST, weather permitting, to be followed by the other SF, (12) Cilic vs Dimitrov.

-- Edited by indiana on Saturday 20th of August 2016 07:49:04 AM

Spectator · All-time great

Hmmm. Wish he were not playing tired. I'm sure he'll give it his all because a) I don't think he knows how to do anything else and b) matches against Raonic matter - there are going to be quite a few at the tail end of tournaments, one suspects, and confidence is important. But another match, tired, with USO and DC coming up back to back. Don't want him to be a victim of his own success.

On which note, I don't really know enough to rank X against Y historically, but I would definitely agree with you, TMH, that three Slams, 12 Masters, the Davis Cup (especially given how it was won), and two successive Olympic gold medals (when all of the players were desperate to get one) should be enough to cement his reputation as a legitimate member of the Big Four/golden generation.

-- Edited by Spectator on Saturday 20th of August 2016 06:20:09 AM

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Stircrazy wrote:
indiana wrote:
R3: (1) Andy Murray WR 2 beat Kevin Anderson (RSA) WR 24 (CH 10 10/15) 6-3 6-2
That was easier than I expected! Better still: time spent on court so far - two hours 58 minutes & seven seconds.

Total now four hours 16 minutes & 26 seconds. He's certainly doing his level best to keep it short! smile

Sim · County player

Well done Andy, and despite being tired, he has probably realised that he has a good chance to achieve the one major missing item on his CV; being World No. 1. With Novak injured and a bit out of form Andy could gain 1000 points this week which would take him to less than 1000 behind Novak in the race. Could make for a very interesting US Open.

indiana · Tennis legend

Yes, may be a week to get through but I wouldn't be over-concerned about cumulative effects per the US Open. Two tough weeks in a row but these are the only two weeks Andy has played since Wimbledon and I reckon a few gentle days and he'll be pretty well primed for the US Open

Like Spectator I do think this SF also matters for keeping Raonic in his box. I do think this is a possible opportunity period for the 22-27 group, which would by definition include Thiem, and that period will stretch through 2017 at least. There is much indication of considerable talent in the younger guys, but there has been little real indication that any are yet poised to come right through at the very top tournaments.