Entries Week 30 - 25/07/2016

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

RE: Entries Week 30 - 25/07/2016

emma · Strong Club Player

no, I don't think I am being over sensitive and I wasn't singling you out The Addict because others use the word too and every so often it crops up. Yes, I understand with friends I get called all kinds of things and I call my friends names too but its done because we know each other and with affection.

but would anyone here say 'girls' to any of the tennis players face, I doubt It. Only if they knew the person. So why does there have to be such a difference between what one says sitting safely behind a computer and what one would say face to face.

I actually find it disrespectful to call a fully grown women in a work profession 'girl'.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I understand your point, Emma, but I don't see it that way.

And I've often talked to the female players on tour and often called them girls so there are no double standards.

In fact, one time the very subject came up (as they were using the word constantly) and their consensus was that 'women' made them feel old, 'ladies' was just pretentious and Jane Austen-ish and 'female' sounded like a government data survey.

Girls was their word of choice.

I mix it around, when I post, and when I talk.

emma · Strong Club Player

ok, thanks CD for explaining this. From my perspective, as I have said before, I pick up vibrations with words so sometimes a word is used but the vibration may not be in accordance with the meaning of the word. In TA's case it was just a word but there is another poster on here who uses the word and the vibration isn't always right.

I'm usually all for freedom of speech but with the understanding that sometimes it is necessary to be careful.

Shhh · Challenger level

emma, I respect you feel strongly about this, but please respect I am genuinely confused. You have explained that you find it disrespectful but not the solution! Addict said "girls" and it offended you when describing three females in their late teens. What word would you have preferred to have been used there?

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I agree with you totally, emma, that context and tone and personality of the speaker is all important. And 'girls' (as an example) CAN be used in a condescending or salacious or disrespectful way.
Although I would also argue that many men use 'women' in a disrespectful way i.e. the undertone is 'a bunch of old women' or fishwives etc.
And 'ladies' can sound VERY condescending.
And 'young ladies' sounds like a finishing school.
etc. etc.

Gender neutral is all very well and good ('players' is obviously a good word) but, at a women's doubles match, you can't shout 'c'mon players!'. That might well be misinterpreted smile

So, as Shhh says, what's the alternative? Just shout 'c'mon' ? And use 'players' even when it sounds completely artificial? It sounds fine in theory but we're getting to a daft point (in my view).

Oakland2002 · All-time great

I think Emma has made a reasonable point, however to a certain extent it is also a reflection of what the poster feels comfortable using. I don't think I have ever picked up any mysogynistic leanings in any of the posts from those involved in this debate. Perhaps the odd faux pas due to the relative social inadequacies of those that choose to spend a significant proportion of their lives following British tennis in unjustifiable depth online.

Taking a slightly different perspective, I loved (unfortunately I think it was Nike) add campaign, "run like a girl" and the different interpretations given by under 8s and teenagers/young women. The 8 year olds quite rightly owned the term girl and their interpretation consistent with winning gold medals and grand slams. Personally I don't find the term disrespectful to women, it is all about ownership and that in it self is empowering.

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

Like CD I am involved in the tennis world, particularly on the girls' / women's side. And TBH, the terms 'girls' and 'women' are both used frequently by all involved (including players and both males and females) completely interchangeably. And equally so are the terms 'boys' and 'men'. You don't hear the term 'ladies' very often just now and again. In the States less so, there it is predominently 'men' and 'women' or 'young men' and 'young women'.

As it is usual currency within the sport in this country, I don't feel it is in any way derogatory to use the term 'girls' on this board - although I can think of plenty of situations in life where the term 'girls' is inherently patronising!! I think maybe using the term 'girls' or 'boys' for professional players has come about as there is often a longish period when a player can be both a junior and an adult professional at the same time.

freerider · Futures level

Should i stop referring to my female partner as my girlfreind?

Oakland2002 · All-time great

I don't think we can help. It's entirely up to you, if she doesn't like it, perhaps stop, she may even prefer the term wife in which case the ball is entirely in your court so to speak! Perhaps write Graham Norton a letter, he gives some very sound advice.

theemptyvessel · Club Coach

Bedene has now joined the long list of withdrawals in Toronto, hard to understand that decision.

indiana · Tennis legend

I spent a long time working with "fully grown women in a work profession" capacity in the insurance industry.

If I or others had started in general calling these we worked with or long knew women rather than girls it would have been looked at strangely. And I am pretty sure not appreciated by many of these up to 40 and beyond, let alone even just under 30.

I can more understand and appreciate "women' for those from say another part of the company as opposed to more immediate colleagues who would more likely say "less of this women".

Now the female tennis players are I think more in a way like colleagues, they are players we know and follow if generally from afar ( and comments noted that certainly these closer see no real issue ).

It reminds me just a little bit of someone who thought it strange / inappropriate that we used so often, indeed mostly re the Brits, christian names for people we don't know, the suggestion being it was overfamiliar. But in a way we do know them and I think it was well argued then that the christian names made perfect sense ( as with followers of players on other sports ) and alternatives would have often seemed a bit too cold / detached.

I appreciate the views re "girls" in tennis, and I have certainly thought more than before about it. But I have to say sorry, but I don't agree there is any real general issue and not as in the way the addict as an example put it.

-- Edited by indiana on Thursday 21st of July 2016 07:56:32 PM

murray_2k9 · Challenger qualifying

Its perfectly normal for professional, adult women to say they are going on a 'girls night' or 'catching up with the girls' without it being frowned upon in any way shape or form, its just a more colloquial expression than woman or female.

Likewise I regularly refer to male friends as 'the boys' and would never expect anyone to expect it to be weird.

I guess it depends what is familiar in your own social / professional circles.

-- Edited by murray_2k9 on Thursday 21st of July 2016 09:17:18 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

Just thinking more, although we do talk about the "boys', probably not so much as the "girls", but that is because there is the further term "guys" quite widely used.

I tend to look at "guys" and "girls" similarly for adult tennis players, kind of the "guys and gals" and neither really in any way associating them with junior boys and girls in some inferior way, although clearly on the female side the same word "girls" is being used for both.

Think that's enough thinking from me anyway for now ...

Spectator · All-time great

I think that in a general work/social setting it's very much a matter of context: as Indy says, if you're someone (male or female) who doesn't know the likely preferences of the women in question, you're probably safer saying women than girls given that what is fine among close colleagues and friends may be less fine from an outsider. And in a formal context - a business meeting or presentation - I would never use the term "girls" - there's something about it there that would suggest lack of respect for someone's professionalism. But then all that goes for "the boys" or "guys" as well. (And indeed, there are contexts where 'the boys' would be more problematic than 'the girls')

With tennis players, I'm not involved in the tennis world like CD and Optimist, but even I have heard the GB women tennis players refer to themselves and others as "the GB girls" so it doesn't bother me when people do the same. I've even done it, though I wouldn't generally describe someone beyond their early 20s that way and sometimes use other terms as well. In honesty, I don't really feel that there's much option when you're talking about the late juniors/just post-juniors stage. I well believe what CD said about the players' own views!

I'm glad you raised the question, though, Emma. It's a helpful reminder that when we - I - speak, a term can, because of the way it's been used to diminish people, be loaded with meanings that weren't intended. And definitely, given the history of using 'girl' in a way that is patronising, if a woman - tennis player or otherwise - objects to being called a girl, I'd say that's something to respect.