New LTA 'interim' performance director, Peter keen appointed.

steven · Tennis legend

RE: New LTA 'interim' performance director, Peter keen appointed.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

I thought I read somewhere not so long ago that the new philosophy was to get our better juniors playing 10ks as opposed to focusing on junior tournaments. It is hardly surprising therefore that the junior rankings are suffering (if indeed they are?). Take Joel Cannell as an example. He has made the MD in at least 7 ITF tournaments this year and I am sure there have been several other weeks where he has not made it out of qualies. I have no doubt that had he focused on junior tournaments during those weeks, his junior ranking would be substantially higher, but would that be better for him as a player in the long term ? I don't think so.

Spectator · All-time great

Wholeheartedly agree, Steven. Memory may play tricks, but I seem to recall that when I first joined the forum, it was rather something if you had players (other than Mr Murray) playing at the weekend - simply not true any more. And the DC has been a team effort all the way. Sigh. The media.

-- Edited by Spectator on Saturday 7th of November 2015 04:00:31 PM

EddietheEagle · County player

The crux of the article wasn't about junior tennis. It was about the state of British tennis generally, with junior performance along with the usual LTA management inanities, cited as a manifestation of that.

By any objective criteria - number of players in ATP top 100 or 200, say and size of total amateur/recreational player base, British tennis remains in the doldrums and has been bumping along the bottom for some time. It can't really get worse than this and recent Davis Cup performance at least represents a green shoot of sorts, particularly after John - all-the-way-from-California - Lloyd's ridiculous spell of captaincy. However, I wouldn't delude yourselves that somehow the picture has hugely improved because I don't see significantly improving trends in the most important indicators.

indiana · Tennis legend

Having read right through Simon Briggs' print article I would say he's pretty much spot on most of the inherent parts if just a touch too much hyperbole.

Yes, "In the view of many veterans of British tennis, the sport as a whole has never been in a worse state" is extremely arguable, though that did not headline my edition, rather the headline "Davis Cup glory must not mask British tennis crisis" - again crisis may ( and I say may ) be arguable ( there's a lot wrong as is frequently pointed to in this forum ), the article comment re the Davis Cup "peel off the shiny surface coating, though, and there is a gaping void beneath" really isn't in my opinion.

Anyway let's address the Davis Cup first. Yes some great wins outside the World Cup by others that got us into the Davis Cup WG and it was great to have James Ward's probably vital win vs the USA. And yes a great team around the guys. But soo much of this is down to the Murrays and Andy in particular that it has to be viewed rather in isolation. Brilliant where GB Davis Cup has got to and more so if the final is won, much indicative of British tennis ? - not very much at all really.

As Eddie says, re rankings etc, the indicators are not good. I was nearly going to list all the top 10, 50, 100, 200, 500, 750 and 1,000 stats but I'll just leave it to anyone to consider any of them and make much case there's anything special going on. I'm much less in touch with grassroots growth or lack of it.

There are some ranking stats though that are very unspecial - 4 British women in the top 300, 9 in the top 500, 2 British men under 25 in the top 500 ( edit : to correct myself a few days later, 2 in the err top 484 since Richard Gabb is 23 and was WR 485 when I wrote this ) - well may some folk mention Kyle ( WR 107 ) and Liam ( WR 276 ) so often when the dearth otherwise of young well ranked British men is so bad.

Let's look at these junior boys ( though as Eddie says they were not the crux of the article, though rightly pointed to ). The current rankings are poor and have been for a couple of years or so. Yes, we know junior rankings need taken with a fair pinch of salt, but mentions that many go to play senior ITFs is a fairly big red herring re British juniors. Apart from not relatively doing a lot in juniors what have they been achieving in senior ITFs compared to other nationalities ??

Thoughts that how big an issue is this anyway, given transition failures in the past with more top juniors mixes issues. We need to improve on transition from juniors to seniors, yes, but we surely still want a good core of junior boys, better than we have now, to work with, however many or few James Wards come through at later ages.

There are, as per usual, positive areas, and that to an extent is cyclical and perhaps seemingly worryingly random, and that now is our junior age girls. Let us really hope that a good number really come through.

And men's double continues to be relatively strong after seeming to step back a bit earlier in the year.

Generally to me we continue to basically bumble along with incoherent contradictory messages and planning from the LTA. Worst ever ? - no. Continuing to be poor ? - yes.

-- Edited by indiana on Thursday 12th of November 2015 01:01:28 AM

Spectator · All-time great

Agree wholeheartedly with the sense that the LTA doesn't seem very functional, that messages are contradictory, and that a lot of the GB stats are nothing special. My objection was to "worst ever" - I think it's inaccurate (and Steven's given various stats to show this over the past year) and also really dispiriting for current players.

steven · Tennis legend

I wouldn't argue with the bumbling/continue to be poor conclusion to indiana's post, nor with the some of the other criticisms, I imagine Simon has a much better idea of what's going on deep in the LTA than I have (in the sense that I have no idea) and I agree with Eddie that the picture hasn't "hugely improved", but I do think the dearth of junior boys was being used as the crux of the article in terms of evidence that results are getting worse, even though I agree that it wasn't the only thing the article was about.

The thing I really don't agree with is "the worst it's ever been" (admittedly, that may partly be headline writer's hyperbole) - it's been much, much worse for most of the last quarter of a century, even if you ignore Andy & Aljaz now, and Tim & Greg before that.

Of course, the fact that it has been much, much worse before says more about how atrocious it was then than anything particularly good about how things are now.

Spectator · All-time great

The more I look at the article, the less fair it seems to current players. To refer to a "gaping void" below the two Murrays and Ms Konta when Ms Watson (whose name is nowhere in the article) is seven spots below Ms Konta in the rankings, Mr Inglot and Mr Marray (ditto) are both in the top 50 in doubles, Mr Bedene is top 50, and Mr Ward and Mr Edmund (ditto) have both been top 100 this year is inaccurate and diminishes some fine accomplishments.

I do also think there's something vaguely peculiar about the fact that these articles tend to appear at points where something really good is happening. I understand that people may not want the LTA to take the glory for accomplishments that are largely independent of it. But it seems a particular fault of the British media vis a vis tennis to want to tear down or laud to the skies, rather than just taking what is at face value - and also to use current players as a means to attack the generally disliked governing body.

It's pretty clear that there are reasons to critique the LTA - though the team around the Davis Cup players, which seems excellent, is an LTA team, and surely that needs some acknowledgement? But certainly I'd have no problems with an article that said, "We're in the Davis Cup final, but isn't it curious that of the six members of the DC squad this year, only two (as I understand it, Dan Evans and Kyle Edmund, but I may be wrong) have really come through the LTA system, which has seemed for years to be in some disarray." But running down the players who are working hard and accomplishing quite a bit despite all the confusion over the years doesn't seem to be fair or just.

paulisi · Tennis legend

I'm not sure how long Downey has been in charge(12-18 months?), but you don't change players abilities overnight.

What does seem to be happening is the lack of funding for players from the LTA and more players going to based themselves overseas.
In addition to the reduction in funding there is a reduction in domestic tournaments which will reduce the cost base of the LTA.

The areas we are concerned with, player development and improvement, improvement of coaching standards and implementation of a proper structure from club to elite level don't seem to be obviously changing.

If Downey came out with a statement saying he had done x,y and z so far and plans to do a,b and c going forward we may be in a better situation to assess.

You cannot change an antiquated system like the LTA or the FA overnight. It takes time as money and power are in the wrong places.

indiana · Tennis legend

paulisi wrote:
I'm not sure how long Downey has been in charge(12-18 months?), but you don't change players abilities overnight.

.......

Indeed, you don't change the players' general abilities overnight. But it's certainly plenty time to initiate changes that might say disillusion many players, thus negatively effecting some performances and indeed perhaps making some question their future in the game.

Re Spectator's comments about the article being unfair to current players, indeed "running down" players who are working hard and accomplishing quite a bit, I just hadn't picked up that impression when I originally read it, and if I had I would have recoiled at the time since I very much support British players and recognise how hard they generally work in often difficult circumstances. I took it as very much against a lot of what is happening in the LTA and that the general picture is not too rosy ( I agree with that and I see him as saying that without blaming the players ) in spite of what some more casual observers may pick up from the Davis Cup success ( by the way the timing is not to me "vaguely peculiar" - he is very openly making these points in the context of the Davis Cup success ).

Anyway I re-read and have to say my general impression that the article is not being harsh on the players remains, it is harsh on the general environment which Mr Briggs believes the players operate in, which helps lead to ongoing overall relatively poor performance.

True, mentioning Jo he could certainly have mentioned Heather and there may be some agenda there in that Heather has more come through the system But that is an agenda or overmaking his case against the LTA and them not helping produce real progress overall rather than against the players themselves. In that context, and looking at things as a whole I didn't see a need for him to go through any sort of list of players doing relatively well.

I'd be surprised if players in general took the article as running them down and I suspect there is much in it that many would agree with.

-- Edited by indiana on Sunday 8th of November 2015 10:20:15 PM

Spectator · All-time great

Thanks, Indiana. I would agree: I don't think that the intention of the article is to run down the GB players ... but I do think that when you have a headline like "British tennis has never been in a worse state" and refer to a "gaping void" behind only three named players, you (and/or your headline writer) are at least willing to have them be collateral damage in making the wider point. Were I a GB player, I might well, as you say, agree about the points re: the LTA. But I don't think I'd appreciate being described as part of a worst-ever state or a "gaping void," (which is fairly morale-sapping terminology) especially if I were actually in the top 100. Or even the top 50. Or the top 25.

Anyway, that's it from me ...

chavkev · Intermediate Club Player

This is probably the wrong place to put this, but the NTC always bothered me. If there was a need for one, why couldn't they have made it like Sharm? Get lots of cheap accommodation and put on 30/40 futures from the site? That way there is senior competition most of the year and the place would be alive with athletes nearly all year round? We have so much money to spend, but have less futures and challenger events than before.

christ · Futures qualifying

paulisi wrote:
You cannot change an antiquated system like the LTA or the FA overnight.

Oh yes you can. But rarely to something that is agreed to be better.

The trick is knowing what you want to change the system to, and that is scarce something that all can agree on. If you asked 100 'experts' what the optimum system is, it appears that you would get maybe 300 answers, most of which would be mutually contradictory. The only measure of "the best system" appears to be hindsight: If we produce <whatever it is that we agreed the target to be> then it was a successful system, if we don't, then it wasn't. If we can't agree the target, we can never have success.

Is the target a world number 1? 100 players in the top 100? 10,000,000 players? Profit? All of the above and more?

I am absolutely convinced that there is no general agreement on the objectives for the LTA (or the FA, or the RFU, or whoever), and as such there can be no clear path to get there. It appears to me that the only targets that ever get agreed upon are unachievable / subjective ones ("improve the outreach of the sport", "increase the opportunities ...", "improve the profile of the sport", "deliver X top Y players", etc.) so accurately measuring success is impossible but all parties can claim vindication after a suitable period. Combine this with the fact that most leaders have their own private aims and they will often claim - sometimes accurately - to have met them: if the onlooking masses didn't/ don't agree with these aims then meeting them is an irrelevance to those onlookers.

To state it differently; for the LTA to produce an Andy Murray, they need an Andy Murray - and if you have an Andy Murray, you don't need the LTA. Therefore the objective shouldn't be to produce an Andy Murray, but producing Andy Murrays is what the public appear to want the LTA to do.

... but I'm new at this, and maybe I have missed the agreed set of LTA objectives.

philwrig · Hall of fame

I think its called you couldn't organise a p** ** in a brewery attack on the LTA. I would love to see massive structural change at the LTA, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Downey was a major success in Canada so looked ideal for the job. Personally when you get a massive reduction in funding, it generally translates to a worsening performance on the pitch, sadly that is a natural result. There clearly is alot of waste in terms of funds not being utulised in the most efficient manner at the LTA, because basically it is a public sector operation. Having said all that most of the people that do make the big decisions do know what they're doing eventhough they may not have been involved directly in professional tennis.

Born2WinTennis · Club Coach

One very encouraging sign is the LTA's partnership with local tennis leagues. I've seen numerous advertisements, at davis cup events, British Tennis Newsletters, LTA home page adverts etc. This is a mass participation tool and they are correct to try and develop it further. Encouraging players to compete locally against each other, at singles, in local parks. Number one goal should be improving the number of regular players.