Davis Cup 2015 - World Group Final - 27th-29th November

indiana · Tennis legend

Davis Cup 2015 - World Group Final - 27th-29th November

indiana · Tennis legend

Spectator wrote:
It's clearly an unhappy situation when the national federation is seen by many of its top players and coaches as being at best an irrelevance and at worst an impediment. Indiana, what I had objected to in the Briggs piece wasn't that it critiqued the LTA but rather (a) the timing and (b) the fact that it suggested that there was almost nothing behind the Murrays and Jo Konta, conveniently overlooking the achievements of some quite decent players. That's not the same thing as saying that there aren't junior players coming up the ranks, or that the LTA needs to do more to promote tennis, or that their constant reversals of strategy are creating issues for people.

To my mind one of the most telling criticisms of the LTA is actually in this piece, where one ironic paragraph sums up a certain passivity on the part of the LTA vis a vis capitalising on success: www.scotsman.com/sport/tennis/andy-murray-action-needed-to-inspire-next-generation-1-3963015.

Re (a) the timing of the Briggs piece was undoubtably deliberately tied in with the Davis Cup Final. I thought that quite appropriate as a time to point out to a general audience how much was far from rosey. I did and do see your point re (b) even if it was not the main thrust of that Briggs piece and while misleading / careless re not recognising some individuals, personally in the wider scheme of things I have doubts as to players feeling particularly snubbed, although clearly I don't know. And the general depth is poor.

Thanks for the Scotsman piece. This and other quotes I have seen from Michael Downey on behalf of the LTA are very worrying in the distinct lack of any real sense of positive action from the LTA to really try and take advantage of this great high profile success. I have seen far too much mention of the word "hope" from him rather than what the LTA themselves plan to do to use this moment in time. Indeed a real sense of 'passivity'.

-- Edited by indiana on Tuesday 1st of December 2015 03:57:13 PM

paulisi · Tennis legend

A few more putting the boot in. David Lloyd and Anne K the latest.
Nice debate going on via radio 5 live.

I wonder if we will get any feedback from the LTA. The silence is deafening at present.

Ratty · County player

Let me put forward a dissenting view: our country is doing OK at pro tennis.

We have 6 male players in the top 200, from a pretty small player base. No we can't compete with the traditional tennis powers - France & Spain - but we're sort of in the middle ground with most other countries apart from them.

Where Slam winners come from is largely a matter of luck. France hasn't had a male one for ages. Switzerland (!) has had two, Serbia one, Spain one, and Britain one. Are Fed and Stan the predictable products of Switzerland's astonishing youth development scheme? I think not.

The LTA makes an easy target. Roll out the tired cliches: "old school tie", "G&T brigade", "Blazers", etc.

I guess that folks just like to complain. And as for leveraging the Davis Cup triumph, don't make me laugh. It'll be 15 years before any children who are inspired to play tennis instead of soccer or cricket get to be really good.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Ratty, the fact that we have a small player base does not make the achievement of having 6 (or 4 homegrown) players in the top 200 any better as far as the LTA is concerned.

The fact that we have a small player base is exactly one of the biggest accusations against the LTA.

And as to not seeing the potential of leveraging the Davis Cup, I would point out that Yannick Noah's victory at Roland Garros was a huge turning point in French tennis.

Before, tennis was considered a 'snob' sport, like here.

After he won, (a real character, cool, hardly old school, and black as well), tennis became a sport for everyone. Every single village was given a grant to install outside tennis courts. Kids who would have done other sports started tennis. And it didn't take 15 years. The kids of 11 or 12, say, who maybe played a little tennis, decided they'd drop football and do tennis. Coaches were hired. Lessons set up. Six years later it was already giving serious results. A gifted ball player with the right set-up can be a top tennis player even if they start late. (A spot survey I did for the FFT about 8 years ago showed that 50% of French male players at the Australian Open had only started tennis seriously from age 12 up - most had played some, and most had played another sport quite seriously too, but tennis was not their main thing until their teens).

Spectator · All-time great

Hmmm. I'd be inclined, admittedly from a bit of an ignoramus' perspective, to agree with you both to some degree.

Like Ratty, I think that GB isn't doing as badly as we sometimes suggest relative to other countries, though we could definitely do better. But we're no Sweden, with the fall from Davis Cup champions to proud possessors of three players in the top 500 (of whom two are in their teens).

But like CD, I'd see a lot of medium-term potential in more participation - and was pretty shocked by the lack of imagination in terms of capitalising on the DC success. Wait until March of next year to get involved? No, no, no. Start now. You have the NTC - use it! Work out some time when some of the DC team can be around. Bring the cup. Invite buckets of promising (and maybe not so promising) youngsters from around the country for a day of activities. Show some video clips of famous DC cup ties, finishing with the Belgium win. Whatever - it's not my job to work out how to enthuse young players. But do something! Or several somethings! And while we're unlikely to get a programme like the French one, especially in this time of cuts to everything, continue to roll out your grassroots strategy but with branding that says that we're a nation of champions ... or whatever works. You have to capture the imagination and get across the message that tennis is about excitement. That's not vastly costly - it is about being creative and committed and communicating with other people.

indiana · Tennis legend

Ratty wrote:
Let me put forward a dissenting view: our country is doing OK at pro tennis.

We have 6 male players in the top 200, from a pretty small player base. No we can't compete with the traditional tennis powers - France & Spain - but we're sort of in the middle ground with most other countries apart from them.

Where Slam winners come from is largely a matter of luck. France hasn't had a male one for ages. Switzerland (!) has had two, Serbia one, Spain one, and Britain one. Are Fed and Stan the predictable products of Switzerland's astonishing youth development scheme? I think not.

The LTA makes an easy target. Roll out the tired cliches: "old school tie", "G&T brigade", "Blazers", etc.

I guess that folks just like to complain. And as for leveraging the Davis Cup triumph, don't make me laugh. It'll be 15 years before any children who are inspired to play tennis instead of soccer or cricket get to be really good.

1) We have an LTA that many would argue aren't doing enough to increase the pro player base at all levels, therefore giving more encouragement to players of all ages and abilities that there is something there to realistically aspire to, and then maybe go futher than envisaged. 6 male players in the top 200. Well, also currently 3 male players under 25 in the top 500 and our highest ranked male player under 20 yo is WR 1150 ( I count that worldwide there are currently 38 under 20 yos in the top 500 against our none in the top 1000 ). We have just 4 female players in the top 300. We could throw selected stats back and forward, but there are undoubtably many very concerning ones ( particularly re young male players, both junior and fairly well into senior - Kyle and Liam and hopefully Cameron to come stand out as so rare at the moment ) as well as some more hopeful looking ones such as currently junior girls at each age group.

2) Ah, yea old "luck" . Of course, there are many elements quite apart from and beyond governing bodies, but there are also many that are not. The LTA IMO ( and I know others' ) anyway actually indeed spends too much time and resource seeking that wonder elite instead of more generally increasing the base at all levels. There are controllable and uncontrollables. Accepting that there are often pleasant uncontrollables that just may have happened anyway is no reason not to do as much as possible regarding the controllables and building the base, which clearly also can help all levels.

3) That 'tired cliches' comment is rather poor, 'tired' even, when the vast majority of folk entering discussions have totally avoided such cliches, simply referred to"'the LTA" and put forward genuine considered opinions regarding what the LTA could do better, however arguable these may be.

4) So, if much of the potential benefit of leveraging the Davis Cup triumph may be 15 years down the line, ( though some can certainly be less ) what are you saying here, let's not bother ?? I see no evidence of folk expecting instant results from really trying to use and build something more from that triumph.

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 2nd of December 2015 01:37:01 AM

Ratty · County player

Well, I could certainly point to many cliched comments about the LTA made by people on this board, but I agree that it is unfair to tar the more thoughtful with the same brush. Sorry about that. I was actually thinking more of the rent-a-mouth brigade in the Press - but then of course that's just good business; no newspaper editor is going to run a story headlined "British tennis doing quite well".

And if you compare us with other populous wealthy (top 50 GDP per head) countries where tennis is played by decent numbers of people - USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Russia - I think we are doing ok.

And over the years the LTA has employed many coaches and administrators with successful track records, from all over the world. The mere fact that we haven't outperformed the competition in spite of hiring this top talent suggests that the task is a very tough one. Like Iceland winning market share from Asda, for example - easy to talk about, darned difficult to do.

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

New Simon Briggs article with Peter Keen
www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/12028538/Britain-call-fall-in-love-with-tennis-as-much-as-cycling-says-LTA-performance-director-Peter-Keen.html

Spectator · All-time great

Thanks, vohor, for that link. Seems to me the most sensible assessment and discussion I've heard coming out of a 'responsable' in quite a while. Wish him all the best.

paulisi · Tennis legend

Interesting, but still hints at no performance plan in place.

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

Yes, Spectator, no reason for his success with cycling not to be replicated with tennis providing the powers in tennis listen; coming from outside tennis (contrary to what Andy was saying) might be the essential ingredient in fact. Or not. Time will tell...if he's given enough of it!

-- Edited by vohor on Wednesday 2nd of December 2015 11:18:36 AM

indiana · Tennis legend

I think the "supportive" paragraph is important if carried through. "We need to make young players feel we are always there for them". As he indicates not necessarily direct funding, but feeling support of whatever kind when they need it. I do get the impression too many are currently left feeling much more isolated from what should be a support centre than need be.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

vohor wrote:
New Simon Briggs article with Peter Keen
www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/12028538/Britain-call-fall-in-love-with-tennis-as-much-as-cycling-says-LTA-performance-director-Peter-Keen.html

Thanks, vohor.

At least the man talks sense (and has a good track record - groan)

Time will tell......but his comments re supportive structure are spot on.

EddietheEagle · County player

I'd like to think that someone with that degree of experience allied to breadth of vision and understanding would actually be running the show. It'll be interesting to see how much freedom of movement for change he is actually given or whether they put the mockers on his efforts. Murray's early views on Keen weren't particularly helpful in that regard but if he, Smith and Co. somehow buy into Keen's direction and maintain a supportive interest in his efforts from the sidelines, Smith perhaps from the inside, then I reckon we may start to see a difference. I don't know this for certain, but Keen is credited with a lot of the good work done in cycling and everyone realises how the landscape of that sport has changed for the better.