Michael Downey - The four year plan for British Tennis

indiana · Tennis legend

RE: Michael Downey - The four year plan for British Tennis

wimdledont · Challenger level

Actually, I don't think it's the case that money is being taken from the lower ranked players and lavished on those higher up. It's not either/or, but neither/nor.

The LTA got £39M from Wimbledon profits alone last year. I am not sure how much of this money is due to end up in the hands of active British tennis players. Under the Tournament bonus scheme, for the first 3 months+ of 2015, IIRC they've paid the girls as follows - Swan £800, Christie £150, Dunne £700, Silva £150 - and possibly a little more for Konta and Broady, if they are eligible.

www.lta.org.uk/play/professional-player-development/tournament-bonus-scheme/

It won't amount to 0.01% of the £39M, which would be £3,900. So for every £100 going in, the TBS has coughed up less than a penny for the players to split between them.

If either Downey or Brett thinks that this situation will get better if they can reduce the player funding further, then they are demented.

indiana · Tennis legend

Interesting, CD, what you say about the top girls such as Heather, Laura and JoKo losing somewhat of a real base and the cameradie of the NTC.

I had been wondering what the effect had been on Tara. She had to fight quite a bit for acceptance and inclusion, and had then seemed very happy at the NTC, with say talking about it and posting pictures in tweets. Is she now feeling a bit like a big rug has been pulled out from underneath her feet?

A131 · Intermediate Club Player

indiana wrote:
Men - a current GB top 5 that has very largely developed in different ways with little real LTA assistance. Meantime, the aspirational core stretching below them threatens to be severely undermined and dissillusioned by 'tough love'.

Women - bit bare at the top ( in the tennis sense ! ) but there seems a lot of potential in younger players at different stages, a future real core, which can encourage others and hopefully develop some top players. The LTA needs to sort out quite a ot to avoid disillusioning many of them in the future.

Indy - Is Kyle Edmund a product of the LTA or has he had nothing to do with any of their programmes or structures. Was he discovered by them? I know he was born in South Africa but came over here at an early age.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
Interesting, CD, what you say about the top girls such as Heather, Laura and JoKo losing somewhat of a real base and the cameradie of the NTC.

I had been wondering what the effect had been on Tara. She had to fight quite a bit for acceptance and inclusion, and had then seemed very happy at the NTC, with say talking about it and posting pictures in tweets. Is she now feeling a bit like a big rug has been pulled out from underneath her feet?

To be honest, my own view is that Tara is the one player who might benefit from the NTC closing. She - if anyone - seems the player who failed to get anyway close to achieving her potential and, from comments from others and by her own admission at times, seemed to have a lot of difficulty in the work ethic and dedication required. I can't help feeling that her stay at the NTC and her relationship with Jane was rather cushy and never seemed to have any 'bite' behind it to force her to improve. Which was a crying shame as she has so much to offer . . .

But, yes, for the others, I do feel for the GB girls and, although I'm sure they'll work it out somehow as suits them best, I do think that British tennis is the poorer for it.

EddietheEagle · County player

Yesterday's Guardian's take on the story with Bob Brett:-

www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/apr/14/bob-brett-lta-performance-director-under-scrutiny

No doubt a highly capable coach in his own right and a good guy to have on side, but why put someone in charge who can never, by definition, focus 100% on the task at hand? He has his own training academy in Italy and that alone imo, ought to have excluded him from ever taking a leading position at the LTA.

Player funding in my opinion is neither here nor there as far as tennis core issues go. A far more important issue is providing people (of all levels and abilities) with reasons to play in the first place. That entails the provision to high level players of the right competitive playing environment, one that fires their motivation and continued development upward through the semi-professional ranks. To me, that's the real heart of the problem.

wimdledont · Challenger level

I think that the principal malaise of the LTA is a common one in many non-profit organisations.

The LTA exists, inter alia, to offer opportunities and support to lower-ranked professional Brit tennis players. But these "clients" have no say in the matter.

Overtime, all non-profits have a tendency to consistently make decisions which are to the benefit of those people within the organisation who make those decisions. In the case of the LTA, the bureaucrats, organisers and coaches.

As the LTA has had a year in which it suffered a budget cut, and had to cut staff, from approx 300 to approx 270, the main focus of the decision makers during this year will have been to protect their own job/dept/budget.

In the mean time they are neglecting to advance the interests of their clients.

This situation is unlikely to improve. It could be improved as follows, though this wont happen, as the clients have no say in the matter...

Transfer power and cash to the clients. Give each player in the top 500, say, a budget to control, of say, £20,000 to spend as they see fit on their travel, accomodation, coaching and general tennis expenditure. Then charge them for their use of LTA facilities. If they want to use the NTC, charge them: if they like Bob Brett shouting at them, let them pay for it. If they think Bolleteri, Mougathingy or Bol academies are better for them, they can now afford to make that choice. Let the market (the clients) decide.

There are currently about 10 female women players within the top 500; so to give each a budget of £20,000 to spend would cost £200,000 - about 0.5% of the Wimbledon profits. You could probably feasibly hope to find an additional £10,000 for the next 20 or so, ranked from 501-1300. That would bring expenditure up to a full 1% of Wimbledon profits.

Some of this would of course finally end up in the pockets of the LTA coaches. But that would depend on player choice.

I think this would entirely change the culture of the LTA. But "Power to the Players" will not happen, bacause the players have no power.

philwrig · Hall of fame

If you back the higher level players its effectively a dead cert akin to an odds on favourite, whereas someone with less potential is potentially money down the pan. I was a big fan of the bonus system which rewarded success/achievement.

wimdledont · Challenger level

I think that there are two sides to the question of whether the LTA should be offering either subsidies, or opportunities to our players. It's worth noting that it is currently neither/nor. Neither enough UK ITFs, nor the wherewithal to even travel to foreign ones.

I personally would like to see the LTA aspiring to do almost as well as tennis powerhouses such as Turkey, Egypt, or Italy.

At the 10k level, I think they should be earmarking a further 0.3% of the Wimbledon winnings as 10k prize money. 20 tournaments per year, distributing US$200,000 = £120,000 approx. It certainly needs to be more than 16. You don't even find out where you really are in the rankings unless you've played 16.

Ideally, these would be broken down into regional blocks, so that players, organisers and officials do not have to travel the length and breadth of the country each week, and can arrange longer-stay accomodation. So Barnstaple1, followed by Barnstaple 2, etc...; or Preston, Shrewsbury, Preston, Shrewsbury...

Additionally, this would allow for some concerted, if cheapskate, regional marketing. Local clubs, universities, schools could all be encouraged to organise amateur tournaments in the months preceding, with the chance for the winners to compete for at least Q WCs. So the whole of the tennis world in the SouthWest, say, knows that their local tennis calendar culminates in a series of professional tournaments in Branstaple, say, in May, for example. There would surely be some chance of local business sponsorship, and of selling a handful of tickets.

Further sponsorship opportunities - well, according to my calcs, the Jolie Ville Golf Resort in Sharm is taking US$17,500 minimum per week in accomodation from players alone, if every single one is sharing a double room. I'm sure the LTA could reach some sort of accomodation...

The main sponsorship opportunity though, would be for the broadcast rights, of course. In time, even the ITF will realise that not even BobinSpain is actually capable of travelling the whole world to follow his favourite players - particularly if they're playing separate continents within a few hours. They give away webcams these days with packets of Smarties. AFAICT, you can stream your footage worldwide for the price of a local phonecall - for which you generally now pay nothing. How hard can it be?

Europe is still the leading power in world tennis. As the only Anglophone country, save Ireland, in Europe, the LTA is actually in a position to webcast countless hours per week of live sport in the lingua franca of the whole of Asia.

paulisi · Tennis legend

The ruling on the ITF used to be that men's 10K should be in groups of 3-4 tournaments within the same country. GB used to put on quite a few groups of 4 men, but I get the feeling that they are in two minds who to support, the newcomers or the established players and they don't seem to meet both requirements.

I don't know it if a misconception, but the LTA seem to give a preference to putting on male tournaments rather than ladies. Are the LTA sexist? The future seems certainly towards the ladies, especially in juniors.

wimdledont · Challenger level

philwrig wrote:
If you back the higher level players its effectively a dead cert akin to an odds on favourite, whereas someone with less potential is potentially money down the pan. I was a big fan of the bonus system which rewarded success/achievement.

I agree that sucess should be rewarded, but...

Laura Robson, for example, was the most famous teenager in Britain from the day she won Junior Wimbledon until her 20th birthday. If she wasn't already guaranteed to be a millionairess before she got allocated a National Insurance No, she must have taken some stupid advice. Andy Murray gets paid millions if he can manage to put on his underpants.

Second, if you only reward success, it's rewarded already. Winnings per round won double at most tournaments. And what about the injured players? Last time I counted, 8 of our top 20 women were injured - Robson, Silva, Cavaday, Boulter, Sam Murray, and I forget, but 40%.

Next, any failure by any of our players never seems to reflect on the coaches. Who are the best in the world, obvs. Except that Murray trained in Spain, Watson pere spent US$40k p.a. for 5 years to keep her in Florida, JoKo was an Ozzy, both Broadys broke though without LTA support; and Laura's been calling her own shots since she was 14.

Should we not have a system where the LTA's coaching staff should be rewarded for success/failure?

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

wimdledont wrote:

In time, even the ITF will realise that not even BobinSpain is actually capable of travelling the whole world to follow his favourite players - particularly if they're playing separate continents within a few hours.

Why do you think we developed multiple personalities

Signed : BiS, BiB, BiC, BiF, BiP (Should have been a BiI from DC last year, but he wasn't so tech savvy and didn't know how to create an account)

On a more serious note, I really like the idea about local tournaments leading to qualifying WCs, and as you say, the marketing/income generating opportunities that would come with it.

baxi2 · Lower Club Player

wimdledont wrote:
philwrig wrote:
If you back the higher level players its effectively a dead cert akin to an odds on favourite, whereas someone with less potential is potentially money down the pan. I was a big fan of the bonus system which rewarded success/achievement.
I agree that sucess should be rewarded, but...
Laura Robson, for example, was the most famous teenager in Britain from the day she won Junior Wimbledon until her 20th birthday. If she wasn't already guaranteed to be a millionairess before she got allocated a National Insurance No, she must have taken some stupid advice. Andy Murray gets paid millions if he can manage to put on his underpants.
Second, if you only reward success, it's rewarded already. Winnings per round won double at most tournaments. And what about the injured players? Last time I counted, 8 of our top 20 women were injured - Robson, Silva, Cavaday, Boulter, Sam Murray, and I forget, but 40%.
Next, any failure by any of our players never seems to reflect on the coaches. Who are the best in the world, obvs. Except that Murray trained in Spain, Watson pere spent US$40k p.a. for 5 years to keep her in Florida, JoKo was an Ozzy, both Broadys broke though without LTA support; and Laura's been calling her own shots since she was 14.
Should we not have a system where the LTA's coaching staff should be rewarded for success/failure?

There must be a common denominator when it comes to the way that Murray,Watson,Joko,The Broadys &Laura have moved ahead of players within the system ? Maybe this is the "secret" the LTA should be looking for ?

wimdledont · Challenger level

Hi Bob,

Yeah, I've had a bath and a few beers, and the brainstorming continues...

WCs should, imho, be awarded all the way up; all through the ITF system. Win a 10k = get at least one WC to a 25k MD. Currently, for example, Katie Swan is ranked below Daniella Konoptseva. If both played Sharm again, KS could be sent to qualies, while Dasha makes the main draw. The system is absurd. But that's the ITF's problem.

The LTA could implement something like this very easily. You basically rebrand every competitive tennis match in the UK as the "Road to Wimbledon". Win your club/6thform/university/park championship, and get at least a Q WC to the new series of regional ITF 10ks. Get through qualies at an ITF 10k, and at least the local LTA bods should know your name ,and might even bung you the train fare to compete in an adjoining ITF10k regional series.

If you start winning at ITF 10k level, then you get at least a WC for the Aoranga Park Wimbledon WC play-offs. And expand that; and make it the central event of the year in the UK junior/amateur/semi-professioonal calendar. Simples!

The FA Cup (Road to Wembley) starts in August - and nobody laughs that much. A 'Road to Wimbledon' could work. When Nuneaton Borough turn up to play Rhyl in September, they are some way from the twin towers; similarly if the Bristol St Paul's municipal courts winner faces off against the Bath Uni singles champ, they're both entitled to dream that Djokovic should be worried about the result.

Personally, when knocked out in the QFsof the school championship, aged 10, I did not regret so much my future opportunities to contribute to participation in the sport; nor to improve my cardiovascular performance; much less to spend 16 weeks acquiring enough 10k points to graduate to 25ks, then to spend a further 16 weeks acquiring enough 25k points... etc...

It was Borg I was after.

indiana · Tennis legend

Hey, but the LTA have in recent times produced Kyle and err, well they have produced Kyle !

OK, they foisted Greg Rusedski on him, which turned out to be not very helpful, but Kyle ended that one.