Professional players need to consider themselves as a business

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

Professional players need to consider themselves as a business

BeefyDeedz · Pro player

A1 tennis academy wrote:
Although like the overwhelming majority of Dedicated GB tennis fans on this forum I think we are all in agreement that futures prize money needs at to at least double I still feel that too many of our top 50 players are expecting to get by on donations rather than earnings
Pro tennis players ranked 151-2000 must treat them selves as small business's not charity's . I am constantly baffled when I approach pro players who are claiming they need funding Rejecting the opportunity to be paid min of 3 times that available from futures to play Aegon matches quite frankly they are not living in the real world .
As businessman that has been lucky enough to have met and negotiated with some of the most talented businessman in the world - my negotiation with Victor Kiam who like myself came from a poor working class background . Victor Kiam was proably my most memorable business encounter and he was a huge inspiration he certainly realised that you have to earn your living - there's no such as a free lunch . You learn that pretty quickly if your brought up in the poor boroughs of London or new york .
There was no free lunches no donations even on bob a job as a young cub in the 1960s you were rewarded for your labour .
I once told my wife that one of the perks of being the CEO is that many of our suppliers put me up in the best restaurants and hotels in Europe she quickly reminded me that we were indirectly paying for the luxury restaurants & hotels with our business - there's no such thing as a free lunch in business .
I am hugely conscious of the failure of many of our young GB players to realise that they are a small business and in business you are paid for providing a service you won't get far my relying on charity .
Business 's large or small gain income for providing goods & services not by relying on public donations
the British public are very generous but I also think have rightly bigger priorities not least providing for those starving and struggling for clean safe water in the 3rd world .
irrespective of the level one obtains in the business world or indeed within tennis it should not take long for even those from the middle middle class's from where the majority of our top 50 pros come to realise there is no such thing as a free lunch .
I guess its harder to visualise this in a liberal and generous British society where no body is really poor unlike the 3rd world no one need die of thirst or starvation and we have a generous welfare system .

-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Saturday 18th of October 2014 01:50:53 PM

I'm curious as to how you came to this conclusion.

Otherwise, I agree with some of what you said. Of course there needs to be some give and take.

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

Came to conclusion having help fund 6 players over the last decade and being consistently rejected by those who are advertising for funding but don't want to commit to 1/2 a day to earn £200-400 so based on experience .

ess it also like a lot of kids that go to uni today they don't really want to study but it beats working for living .

and of course it's great to travel the world playing tennis for 3-4 years with no real chance of making as a pro especially if somebody else is going to pay for it .

my acid test for funding - would you be willing to be paid 3 x the rate at futures to play just 2 Aegon matches

too many GB players are what I call "lifestyle professionals " you get them in business they make bloody awful suppliers they are called life style business's

BeefyDeedz · Pro player

I meant the 'nobody is really poor' part of the argument.

I also see the university argument thrown around a lot nowadays. I have to say, I haven't met a single person at the university that I go to who has been anything but committed to the endgame (ie. a degree and a job). It seems to be a bit of an easy argument for most people to make even though I haven't seen a basis for it!

But again, I've agreed before and will agree again that many young sporting wannabes aren't willing to accept a small hindrance for regular funding (from personal experience).

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I wouldn't phrase things quite the way you do A1 but, like Beefy, i agree with many of your points.

I know we've been here before but, as you've put it out there again, whcih is perfectly fair as it is a very important point, just to say that my view is, yes, the ITF futures prizes are a disgrace (although the bonus fund tackles that problem very nicely) but that direct funding of tennis players is not the way to go. And, yes, tennis players have a certain responsibility to look at their own careers and futures and 'own' them (as the therapists would say). If they don't want to play team tennis, with the money offered, that's absolutely fine. But, I agree, don't kvetch and moan too much about no funding.

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

Coup Droit wrote:
I wouldn't phrase things quite the way you do A1 but, like Beefy, i agree with many of your points.

I know we've been here before but, as you've put it out there again, whcih is perfectly fair as it is a very important point, just to say that my view is, yes, the ITF futures prizes are a disgrace (although the bonus fund tackles that problem very nicely) but that direct funding of tennis players is not the way to go. And, yes, tennis players have a certain responsibility to look at their own careers and futures and 'own' them (as the therapists would say). If they don't want to play team tennis, with the money offered, that's absolutely fine. But, I agree, don't kvetch and moan too much about no funding.

Exactly

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

The LTA bonus is a very good movement in the right direction but not satisfactory let me explain

you live in London were top junior now 18 get a train to Manchester futures £80 hotel £65 food £10 = £155 then on tight budget £75 per day . Costs min £230 loss £165

you spend 2 days qualifying and lose R1 cost £230 you get £70 prize money and no LTA bonus

Next senario you have exhausted lta bonus that's capped at £5000 you win tournament profit £300 but RU zero

double the futures prize money and lift the lta cap and your talking

-- Edited by A1 tennis academy on Sunday 19th of October 2014 08:28:06 AM

paulisi · Tennis legend

The bonus fund only helps if you are at a certain level i.e capable of winning a couple of rounds in a 10K.

I'm not aware of any fund for players just starting on the tour and this needs to be addressed.

In terms of costs, a lot of players cut costs by bunking with friends, finding cheaper hotels or car sharing.

In terms of team Aegon, I'm not really surprised decent players won't commit so far in advance. If they have ambitions of playing deep in a tournament then they cannot guarantee getting back or giving 100% due to fatigue. Also that far in advance you will not have decided your schedule as it primarily depends on your ranking.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

ITF prize money should be increased. But that is not in the LTA's control.

You could then have a bonus top-up as well, if you want, as an indirect extra funding mechanism.

But the cap is a good idea. Futures are a stepping stone and not a means of living. And the LTA should not be directly funding all 18 year-olds who go to Manchester and get knocked out in round one.

No other country that I know of does this.

Once again, my view is that the LTA should not be directly funding 20 year-olds in futures; they should be making tennis a thriving, widespread popular sport with enough numbers to support a lot more coaches, interest a lot more sponsors, make team singles tennis a seasonal thing for all, etc. etc. etc. This allows players to be self-funding (via different routes) as they are now part of a thriving industry with money to go round.

Extra help (on a sliding scale) for elite youngsters/players ('elite' on a sliding scale to match the help) is also a normal part of a federation's role. And facilities/coaches/programmes (very cost-effective, big bang for your buck) are all part of this. But the LTA do not owe the guys a living.

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

I would be first to say we don't owe them a living I am still deeply mourning the loss of Maggie thatcher no it's all about GB winning ,getting up the rankings What else are the LTA going do with our money anyway !

Up the bonus's cos it's working !

If you 18 and British making R1 futures is a huge break through !

paulisi · Tennis legend

I'm all for the LTA extending the bonus scheme for start up players (first year at seniors or starting up from college or long term injury) where they get a bonus for qualifying and another bonus for first round win and then also entitled to main bonus scheme if they progress further.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

A1 tennis academy wrote:
I would be first to say we don't owe them a living I am still deeply mourning the loss of Maggie thatcher no it's all about GB winning ,getting up the rankings What else are the LTA going do with our money anyway !
Up the bonus's cos it's working !
If you 18 and British making R1 futures is a huge break through !

I don't think it's the way for GB to win and get up the rankings.

As said, i think the LTA should be investing their money in making the sport a thriving sport (which it is currently so far from being as to be laughable). That's what they should be doing with their money, in my view. The winning will then come.

Shhh · Challenger level

Only a very few (such as us) follow players outside the top 100. Why should a player be paid to exist at 300, or 600, or 1,000 in the world rankings. He is not bringing anything to society so to speak in the form of entertainment to an audience, inspiration to a sizable body of juniors (harsh but I believe true).

I believe funding should be provided when you believe a player may be climbing into the top 100 and can achieve those things, regardless of age or how long it takes.

But how to separate those from who may make it from those who wont. How can you judge, whats the criteria? When the LTA have tried to do something along those lines they can be berated by most on here who sometimes want to see a GB player supported regardless of anything.

Bonus pools, step by step targets may very well be the way forward but only if the player is fit and healthy. No tennis players career goes in a steady upward line, there are peaks and troughs everywhere.....surely its when down in a trough that a player needs most support......as long as the belief is there that the trough will end. What about an injured player? He still has to live.

Certain players may need tough love, others a metaphorical arm around their shoulders. One system is unlikely to fit all.

Its a very complicated one. I basically want more British players to reach higher levels. Funding can achieve that but it has also been demonstrated in the past in can create a comfort zone that ends up preventing it.

EddietheEagle · County player

A1 tennis academy wrote:
I would be first to say we don't owe them a living I am still deeply mourning the loss of Maggie thatcher no it's all about GB winning ,getting up the rankings What else are the LTA going do with our money anyway !

Up the bonus's cos it's working !

If you 18 and British making R1 futures is a huge break through !

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I don't think it's the way for GB to win and get up the rankings.

As said, i think the LTA should be investing their money in making the sport a thriving sport (which it is currently so far from being as to be laughable). That's what they should be doing with their money, in my view. The winning will then come.

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Your two views aren't incompatible.

UK tennis historically is entrenched in local tennis clubs. Yet in modern times we lack the scale and importance of the inter-club competitions seen in France, Germany and other countries where a stream of high level ATP players hold lucrative contracts. We need the James Wards of the world plying their trade here. I suspect a lot of UK clubs are simply not attractive enough facilities-wise to draw these players at the moment. Too many British clubs are still rooted in quiet suburbia at the asphalt court and garden-shed-for-clubhouse stage while the world passes them by. Most of the recent development in court facilities seems to happen in centrally-controlled, commercially-operated fitness centres which lack a suitable tennis atmosphere to draw in the crowds and build partisan support.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

The fact that France (and others) have some high ATP players who get paid reasonably well for their league matches is not the main point, in my view, and just a scratch on the surface.

In fact, the fees paid (about 700 euros a match, five matches a year, on average, from my knowledge) are coming down. One of the top elite clubs in the 1ere division has refused to pay any fees in the last three years (it now only uses home-grown younger players). And has still stayed in the elite division.

Having James Ward playing here wouldn't make a jot of difference - he already does at all the UK tournaments and he obviously trains here some of the time.

The issue is that top tennis in the UK is a linear thing - a handful of young good players who are hot-housed by the LTA and tried to be turned into top world players. The rest of tennis is largely social and doubles-based and the LTA have little to do with it.

Other countries have a proper pyramid of singles tennis as a sport, each layer feeding through players into the next layer up, and all supported by the federation.

As an example, I called the LTA two years ago and asked where, in London, I could inscribe in a tournament and play an official singles match (I'm a reasonable club player, no more). They gave me a date in 6 months time. I fell about laughing (read crying). The area in France where I was based (in the middle of nowhere really) has - within 30-40 mins drive - about 25 tournaments a year (and about another 6 team competitions). Progressive draws means everyone comes in at their level, matches are played in the evenings if you work. It's taken seriously. It's a proper sport. For all. So parents play. So their kids want to play. So their kids' friends want to play. So they want lessons. So more coaches needed. So local companies sponsor local tournaments because 200 people, roughly, play in each tournament. And bring supporters. etc. etc.

GB's problem is not whether our top players play team tennis here or not. Although it's be nice. The issue is why the LTA does not create/fund/support a sport of singles tennis in the UK.