Week 42 - USA F28 ($15,000) - Mansfield, TX (Hard)

murray_2k9 · Challenger qualifying

RE: Week 42 - USA F28 ($15,000) - Mansfield, TX (Hard)

DWH · Club Coach

No consolation for Cunha and Kutrovsky after their respective Broady brand bagels. Liam does the double! 4-6 6-3 10-7 biggrin

paulisi · Tennis legend

Doubles title bagged as well

The new team is doing well - Liam, Mark Hilton, Dave Sammel, Adrian Tannock and Ric Moylan

-- Edited by paulisi on Sunday 19th of October 2014 09:18:41 PM

korriban · Challenger level

Oakland2002 wrote:
Smashing result. Optimistic that there is more to come. Obviously worked really hard this year and agree with Korriban, that if he keeps up his present progress he will be able to add those 10-15% and become an elite tourin pro. ( Corriban do you think Peter Barlow will go down? Or haven't you been allowed to watch)

Who an earth is Peter Barlow? Am I missing something?

TMH · Futures qualifying

korriban wrote:
Fantastic result! How many times recently has Liam been down and out, yet fought back to win? Enough for it to be more than a coincidence.....it means his fitness is good, and that there's nothing wrong with his will to win, even when all seems lost.
I worry about his strength and physicality against the best, and although he has clearly added a little more power to his serve recently, I think he'd really benefit from another 5-10 mph on serve and 5-10% more penetration on his groundstrokes. And these ARE things that could realistically be achieved with targetted off- and on-court training in those areas. With more experience to cut out the occasional moment of madness on shot selection, he's definitely got a shot at top 100, and is almost certain to be a solid CH player at the very least.
Top 50 I think is VERY unlikely, given that he would probably have stood out much more by now, but top 100 is a more than decent target for now. Didn;t think I'd be saying these things about Liam in 2014, so well done him......
......he can finish off the year with 2 or 3 US CH tournaments with genuine confidence and can look forward to the Winter break a satisfied man, no matter how he does in the US....

Take a look at top 50 players (past and present) and see how many of them have 'stood out much more' by Liam's age. Hell, with two junior Slam finals Liam outshines many of them. I know you're referring to his senior career to date but I've never understood this ceiling crap. Quite honestly, it's impossible to say. Players these days are peaking late into their 20s (some into their 30s). I doubt many would have predicted Estrella to make the top 100 when he was 28, let alone 20, for instance - and yes, he's clearly a unique example, but there are plenty of similar examples of players who never shone at a young age. Hard work and graft can count for a hell of a lot in this sport, often over raw talent (and it would seem Liam has both).

That's not to say I think Liam's a 'certainty' to reach that level. Hell, he might never even crack the top 200. It's just impossible to call. But ultimately all it takes to reach some of these levels that many deem 'very unlikely' is a hot streak or a one-off tournament (or a slice of luck) when they're floating not far off these rankings, and suddenly they're top 50, or top 100, or whatever. Whether they can stay there is another matter, but it's utterly ridiculous to give them a ceiling at this age.

Just had a quick glance at the top 50 and picked a few at random. Let's see how they compare.

Liam is 20yrs and 9 months, so for comparison I checked where these players were ranked when they turned 21.

WR 14 Roberto Bautista-Agut - WR 339 (CH 337) @ 21
WR 26 Julien Benneteau - WR 253 (CH 190) @ 21
WR 30 Lukas Rosol - WR 463 (=CH) @ 21
WR 33 Pablo Cuevas - WR 230 (=CH) @ 21
WR 38 Guillermo Garcia-Lopez - WR 183 (CH 180) @ 21 - (was WR 241 at 20yrs, 9 months)
WR 46 Pablo Andujar - WR 214 (CH 194) @ 21
WR 49 Joao Sousa - WR 394 (=CH) @ 21
WR 50 Jan-Lennard Struff - WR 286 (=CH) @21

I am absolutely sure there are hundreds more examples of former top 50 players who were at a similar level at Liam's age.

I just see nothing at all at this age to suggest that it is 'VERY unlikely' that Liam will be a top 50 player at some point in his career.

-- Edited by TMH on Monday 20th of October 2014 02:10:47 AM

korriban · Challenger level

Well said TMH! Thanks for the stats and clearly you may be right. I may be right too - it's primarily a relative lack of power issue for me, which might not be so evident as a junior. And the fact he's only won 2 matches at CH level and none at ATP level by the age of 20, rather than pure ranking.

I still have no idea who this Barlow chap is?!

Priesty · Challenger level

korriban wrote
I still have no idea who this Barlow chap is?!

He's in Coronation Street. I am second-guessing here that Oakland is making a joke about your forum name - that it means you are banned from watching Corrie.

By the way I don't watch it either and only know this because it's plastered all over the TV papers.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

instagram.com/p/uWkLJpskn7/

Very nice photo of Liam !

And, just a question:

David Sammel @DaveSammel · 11h 11 hours ago

3rd title for @Liambroady since our linking up. Strong team with @markhilts @adriantannock @ricmoylan #steadyprogress

Does this mean that Liam is at Nottingham but Sammel (head coach at Bath) is also working with him ? Or that Sammel has moved to Nottingham ? How does this pan out ?

paulisi · Tennis legend

I'm not sure, but Toby told me that Dave Sammel is responsible for Mark Hilton's training group(Liam, Luke, JWH, Toby). May be are under Team Bath, but based in Nottingham.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Thanks, paulisi.

I'm geographically challenged enough as it is but, yes, I guess there may well be some joint arrangement . . .

TMH · Futures qualifying

korriban wrote:
Well said TMH! Thanks for the stats and clearly you may be right. I may be right too - it's primarily a relative lack of power issue for me, which might not be so evident as a junior. And the fact he's only won 2 matches at CH level and none at ATP level by the age of 20, rather than pure ranking.
I still have no idea who this Barlow chap is?!

Perhaps, but it's not like he can't work on his power is it? He'll never possess a Berdych-like forehand but then with his court-craft and defence he doesn't necessarily need to.

I know it's said a lot on here, but players do develop at different rates. Some top juniors struggle for years only to suddenly hit a purple patch in their early 20s. Liam's had a slow transition (especially after being ranked in the 600s at, was it 16? 17?) but he seems to be making real progress now and at 20 he is still *very* young (even though we do now have several teenagers making quick progress, the average age of the top 100 is still closer to 30 than 20). He has plenty of time in his career to work on his weaknesses and develop his strengths.

Of those mentioned above, Bautista only had two CH wins (vs the WR 298 and WR 501), Rosol had none, Sousa had one (vs the WR 107) and one ATP win (vs WR 164), and Struff had three (in one tournament - vs WR 1027, WR 291 and WR 185).

By comparison Liam has two CH wins - vs WR 188 and WR 148.

Anyhow, most top 50 players are ones who have floated in the 50-100/150 range for large parts of their careers before hitting a purple patch. If Liam ever manages to become a regular top 100 fixture, especially if he does it before his mid 20s, then it's not really that unlikely that he'll hit a good run of form at some point and surge into the top 50.

At that level, I really think dedication and graft count for a hell of a lot more than talent alone. If you have both, you'll probably do very well, but just look at the likes of Ryan Harrison and Bernard Tomic - broke the top 100 at 18, and yet neither have progressed at all since. Harrison isn't even the top 100 any more, four years on. And yet the likes of Struff - two years his senior, still playing the Futures circuit and failing in Challenger qualifying at the same time Harrison was playing the main tour - are now ranked well above him and indeed in the top 50 themselves. I think, generally speaking, that talent gets you to/near the top 100, and after that it's the dedication and graft that get you to the top 50 and above. Only really the top 10 is where the 'wonderkids' dominate, but you do get the odd exception.

philwrig · Hall of fame

Liam hit plenty of winners as a junior, and initially as a senior when using a heavier racket. But because of his arm/shoulder issue he had to downgrade to a lighter racket, hence he became more of a consistent baseliner, making use of his elite athletic skills, and also introducing more guile and tactics into his displays. I haven't spoken to Liam since May, so don't know whether the arm/ racket situation is still the same, but clearly the new setup with Dave Sammel looks like its paying huge dividends, and with Liam's huge natural talent, you don't fluke 2 grand slam finals as a junior ( remember Kyle never got past the semis as a junior ), there is only one direction he is going.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Priesty wrote:
korriban wrote
I still have no idea who this Barlow chap is?!
He's in Coronation Street. I am second-guessing here that Oakland is making a joke about your forum name - that it means you are banned from watching Corrie.
By the way I don't watch it either and only know this because it's plastered all over the TV papers.

I am sure Ed will be highly disappointed by this news. wink

Priesty · Challenger level

Bob in Spain wrote:
Priesty wrote:
korriban wrote
I still have no idea who this Barlow chap is?!
He's in Coronation Street. I am second-guessing here that Oakland is making a joke about your forum name - that it means you are banned from watching Corrie.
By the way I don't watch it either and only know this because it's plastered all over the TV papers.
I am sure Ed will be highly disappointed by this news.

biggrin