Scottish Referendum

PaulM · Tennis legend

Scottish Referendum

PaulM · Tennis legend

Fleming also out for independence.

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

I really can't see the point of making their views known at such a late date. They surely can't alter the way people are going to vote now (at least I hope the Scots are not so stupid as to vote on such a serious issue, swayed by the opinion of a few "celebrities"). All it will do is alienate the opposite side in both Scotland and the rest of the UK.

Twitter is so dangerous, as many people who have in effect "blurted out" things on there which they later wish they hadn't made public have discovered.

philwrig · Hall of fame

I would have kept quiet also, because its going to come back to bite them in some shape or form, that is the world we live in, like it or not.

If Scotland vote yes, and thankfully the bookies are increasingly saying the likely outcome is no, the fallout is going to be huge and not as a certain Mr Salmond might have you believe. I do agree with quite a few things posted above by Paul.

indiana · Tennis legend

I agree with much of what Paul says, unsurprisingly so given folk may have detected my support for NO !!!!!

However, Andy is perfectly entitled to an opinion, and in theory to express it. My worry about him expressing it is the reaction of others, symptomatic a bit in what Paul himself has said. I see no contradiction at all in Andy expressing his support for GB and giving his best for them in the Davis Cup and Olympics both in the past and in the future if it it is a NO vote. Giving your best for GB when that is the status quo and given a choice of an independent Scotland supporting that is not some big contradiction. My worry for him is it will be spun by many as anti British / anti English.

Now frankly far too many YES supporters ( if still very much a minority ) have, as Paul alluded to, been a disgrace to democracy ( which is rather ironic in what they claim many of their aims are ), continually abusing speakers and supporters of NO on the campaign trail and on social media. If Salmond has condemned this, it has not been loudly enough, and while NO are not perfect in this regard any suggestion of similarity is absolutely disingenuous. It has been very sad to witness.

BUT I accept that many YES supporters are voting YES ( or support YES with no vote ) for their own very considered reasons AND abuse nobody AND that doesn't make them anti English. It just means for many given the choice of an independent Scotland they support it.

And these feelings will often be very complex, my own for NO are so many and so ingrained, many summed up in Gordon Brown's magnificent speech yesterday. When he got to the point about how dare the Nationalists make out that NO supporters don't wish the best for Scotland, are not proud Scots and any less Scottish I felt like standing up and cheering in my living room. He spoke for so many, and he pointed to the remaining ( even after two years ) huge amount of uncertainty and the giving up of so much.

My ( rambling ) point here though is for folk not to generalise about YES or NO supporters. I fundamentally disagree with YES, but I will respect YES supporters unless and until they give me reason not to respect them. And Andy should be respected and not taken against. I suspect folk will though hold it against him, without having any understanding of his full thinking, which is why mostly for himself I would have preferred that he's kept quiet. Also, if he thinks that himself expressing support for YES could / should influence others then he has slightly lost the plot, although given some reasons I hear for votes...

PaulM · Tennis legend

Great post Indy.

Scouseandy · Social player

Well written posts Paul and Indy... ahem I mean Indiana. While I have some sympathies with those voting YES, I really, really hope it is a NO vote in the end. Im keeping everything crossed. However, I am really worried that it could go the other way but you all seem to be very optimistic! I guess we don't have to wait much longer to find out. Andy's view isn't a surprise given the way he has been treated over the years by the British media and he would have the last laugh I guess. However, he has (along with Jamie and Colin) contributed so much to British tennis that I will have no problem supporting them all post-no. I sincerely hope there will not be a backlash purely due to political affiliations...

indiana · Tennis legend

On a tennis front, Andy and Colin may have rather less to be concerned about than young Scots at the very beginning of their tennis careers.

At the very least a YES vote would create quite a few worries and uncertainties for many Scottish sportsmen, women and youngsters even if many prove to be misplaced.

While so much money would need to be spent just in the process of becoming independent, I am thinking funding Tennis Scotland might not be quite a top priority.

indiana · Tennis legend

Scouseandy, personally I am a bit less worried than I was about a week or so ago when the momentum towards YES from a relatively low base even a matter of months ago seemed huge.

And we keep hearing that polls have historically overestimated support for independence movements ( the theory goes that it's much easier to say YES to a pollster than to put that cross in the YES box on the day ).

Even now, the bookies' ( historically better judges than pollsters ) 4/1 odds against Scotland breaking away from the rest of the UK would not be my preferred position on the day. Try 1,000/1 !

scottie1 · Futures level

indiana wrote:
I agree with much of what Paul says, unsurprisingly so given folk may have detected my support for NO !!!!!

However, Andy is perfectly entitled to an opinion, and in theory to express it. My worry about him expressing it is the reaction of others, symptomatic a bit in what Paul himself has said. I see no contradiction at all in Andy expressing his support for GB and giving his best for them in the Davis Cup and Olympics both in the past and in the future if it it is a NO vote. Giving your best for GB when that is the status quo and given a choice of an independent Scotland supporting that is not some big contradiction. My worry for him is it will be spun by many as anti British / anti English.

Now frankly far too many YES supporters ( if still very much a minority ) have, as Paul alluded to, been a disgrace to democracy ( which is rather ironic in what they claim many of their aims are ), continually abusing speakers and supporters of NO on the campaign trail and on social media. If Salmond has condemned this, it has not been loudly enough, and while NO are not perfect in this regard any suggestion of similarity is absolutely disingenuous. It has been very sad to witness.

BUT I accept that many YES supporters are voting YES ( or support YES with no vote ) for their own very considered reasons AND abuse nobody AND that doesn't make them anti English. It just means for many given the choice of an independent Scotland they support it.

And these feelings will often be very complex, my own for NO are so many and so ingrained, many summed up in Gordon Brown's magnificent speech yesterday. When he got to the point about how dare the Nationalists make out that NO supporters don't wish the best for Scotland, are not proud Scots and any less Scottish I felt like standing up and cheering in my living room. He spoke for so many, and he pointed to the remaining ( even after two years ) huge amount of uncertainty and the giving up of so much.

My ( rambling ) point here though is for folk not to generalise about YES or NO supporters. I fundamentally disagree with YES, but I will respect YES supporters unless and until they give me reason not to respect them. And Andy should be respected and not taken against. I suspect folk will though hold it against him, without having any understanding of his full thinking, which is why mostly for himself I would have preferred that he's kept quiet. Also, if he thinks that himself expressing support for YES could / should influence others then he has slightly lost the plot, although given some reasons I hear for votes...

Gordon Brown a man that couldn't be bothered making any effort to engage with Scottish people over the last few years. More powers for Scotland he guarantees but he is not in Government I wouldn't trust that man in a million years sold off all our Gold assets Oh and by the way I voted no. I don't have any issues with Andy saying yes it is a referendum and he is entitled to say what he thinks I put on earlier that Beckham chipped in his tuppence worth from the USA. Any way this is a tennis forum not a political debate hopefully tomorrow we can move on whatever the result

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

It is a tennis forum, but we discuss other sports and other things - which is why I transferred the original posts from a tennis thread to a new one in the Chat section. You can discuss anything you like (well, within reason!) there.

PaulM · Tennis legend

I'm also not a big Brown fan but his speech yesterday was incredible. We have needed that kind of passion and emotion for a long time on this side, I just hope it wasn't too late.

BeefyDeedz · Pro player

Regardless of the decision made by the Scottish people, my many conversations with voting Scots have been mostly satisfactory. I've seen people criticise Andy and I just can't see the reason except gross (in the very sense of the word) nationalism. I've seen Yesers do all sorts: refer to Dickens' Hard Times, how they aren't driven by facts and statistics but passion, removing remnants from Colonial Britain and just taking the opportunity for change. I've also seen Noers put up very solid arguments with much lauded facts and equally strong amounts of passion. I talked to a Scottish tutor at my university today who wasn't able to vote and he assured everybody that it would almost certainly be a no. Half of the surrounding crowd cheered, half lamented.

I suppose my point is that the average sports follower in Britain has a degree of nationalistic pride about them, and it was of course risky for Andy to put himself out there at a late stage, especially. But from my experience, the silent majority have sound reasons (from being scared about an independent future to 'having an opportunity for Socialism') for voting how they do and Andy has garnered serious media attention. If it really is the 'biggest decision of their lives' then I would rather Andy lose some of his fickle British fans in expressing his opinion than remain muted in a democratic process.

Spectator · All-time great

There's a rather lovely juxtaposition in Mr (J) Murray's twitter feed: four tweets supporting independence, followed by a retweet of Stu Fraser's announcement about the 2015 GB/US Davis Cup tie.

Would agree with those who don't feel that his intervention will have helped Mr (A) Murray with the British media or general public - but then that's no reason to express or not to express an opinion.

Best wishes to all Scots on the board - however one feels about it, this can't be an easy time, with so much potentially on the line (as there is for the rest of the UK, for that matter). And best wishes for rebuilding the relationships between the Yes and No camps after the vote, whichever way it goes.

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

Amen to that.