NTC set to close

EddietheEagle · County player

RE: NTC set to close

steven · Tennis legend

There's only one thing worse than spending £40m on a national tennis centre instead of spreading the money around more productively ... and that's spending £40m on a national tennis centre and not making the fullest possible use of it. Though by all accounts, that was the case to some extent even before this latest decision was made.

LordBrownof · Futures level

Interesting debate, though I rather think the national vs regional argument has been sidelined by the lingering 'Roger Draper is a conman' feeling. I'm not saying national is the way forward but when assessing the value of a strategic decision which cost 40m, it is sometimes important to look at things in isolation first before considering them in the round.

So, is the problem the strategic decision to create a national tennis centre or was the actual issue the way this one was ran? From what I've read and heard, seems to me the problem was the culture created there. Takes time but you can change that. That said, I can certainly see the value in a regional strategy, not least for the youngsters who can remain slightly closer to home, but also because there are numerous examples in other sports, and indeed other businesses, where regional centres have worked.

The biggest problem for me, as many of you have already said, is the lack of clarity over what they're going to do with a 40m tennis centre. Absurd not to make use of it. Perhaps they'll sell it (though I have no idea to whom) and recoup some of the cash they've spent.

paulisi · Tennis legend

It will be used as an admin centre and a base for DC/Fed Cup players. In addition to that training camps and the occasional tournament.

We await an announcement for the LTA.

However i'm sure it will still be a play and pay for the foreigners who use it.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Having mulled it over with others, I have one hope and one fear and one aside.

My hope is that Downey has shut it down, to get rid of everything, give a blank slate, and then - 6 months down the road - will unveil a new plan of his 'baby', a centre (of whatever sort) that fits with his vision, that can start from the scratch.

My fear - and I hate business people/politicians etc. who do this - is it's a throwing the baby out with the bathwater style thing. i.e. Draper was the previous guy, the previous guy is now the devil, so whatever he liked, we hate etc . . . All change, no matter what . . .

My aside is: has Downey told/consulted with Brett? I'm assuming, of course, that he absolutely has done. But as I understand it, Brett is due to start officially in a month or so. Exactly when the NTC performance side shuts. Would be quite droll if Bob turned up to find nobody there and he'd rented a house in precisely the wrong part of the country . ..

(Like LordB, I'm not too fussed about regional or national - the ethos comes from on high - if a place is run badly, it will produce bad results, no matter who the players are. But that is 'easy' to change. However, if we're going to go regional - there's Bath, Bolton, Notts and Hatfield - where on earth are all those in London (central/south) and the south-east (densely populated) supposed to go ?)

paulisi · Tennis legend

CD - if my geography is correct Hatfield would be the regional centre for the South East. If Evo has to travel from Birmingham to Nottingham everyday then why can't our boys and girls make that journey in the South East?

There is also Northwood where Alan Jones and Jo Durie have a good group of girls under their wings.

PS Bolton has got very few top players at present and there is no base for Scotland.

-- Edited by paulisi on Monday 25th of August 2014 11:21:53 AM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Oh, yes, if you allow 2-3 hours travel time you can get pretty much anywhere.

But, what I meant was that the south-east is very densely populated, indoor tennis courts (in particular) are rarer than hens' teeth, you have a deluxe tennis facility and it therefore makes NO sense to use your most expensive piece of real estate (with all the cap-ex already accounted for) as an admin office, which could be done in any part of the country.

As I say, I'm assuming that Downey has 'hidden' plans . . .

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

paulisi wrote:
CD - if my geography is correct Hatfield would be the regional centre for the South East. If Evo has to travel from Birmingham to Nottingham everyday then why can't our boys and girls make that journey in the South East?

There is also Northwood where Alan Jones and Jo Durie have a good group of girls under their wings.
PS Bolton has got very few top players at present and there is no base for Scotland.

-- Edited by paulisi on Monday 25th of August 2014 11:21:53 AM

Northwood is not listed on the LTA site as a performance centre of any type. Their own website lists 2 'founders' so possibly this is an entirely commercial venture outside of the LTA structure. They have far more girls listed as players than boys. The girls include Katy Dunne, Harriet Dart, Beth Askew, Charlotte Pearce, Georgie Axon and Ellie-Rose Griffiths. The boys include Finn Bass and Jack Macfarlane. There are a few other unknown names listed, mainly young juniors.

I assume everyone has picked the 4 centres currently listed as IHPCs to be the ones to continue Bath, Bolton, Goslings and Win. The latter is closing (has closed?) down and I guess Nottingham to be the obvious replacement. However, Bolton isn't a clear cut candidate to me and I wonder whether Stirling might take its place so that there is a centre in Scotland - or are they waiting for the independence vote before putting one there??

-- Edited by The Optimist on Tuesday 26th of August 2014 05:31:48 AM

indiana · Tennis legend

Doesn't currently make sense to me either, CD, you surely use it as say another regional performance centre or certainly something much more than the wishy washy variety of ( often occasional ) uses that we have so far heard about.

Looking forward hopefully for some "hidden plans".

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

In general on this debate, I think it wrong to lay any blame on Rog the Dodge for the NTC. The decision to build it was taken before he took office and I believe construction was also well underway. I think (but feel free to correct me, memory not always outstanding) that he publicly spoke out against the development when it was under discussion.

How many players are actually based at the NTC? Liam, Kyle, Luke, Katie, Tara, Alex. There must be more but it's not a huge number. Those that are there get a great ride, they get no funding per se but everything is provided - accommodation, coaching, physio, strength and conditioning, travel for tournaments on their planned schedule.

As far as I can see the only change is that these players will be at other centres. I cannot see that this will impact their tennis experience greatly but it may affect their finances. The centre is already used for admin, the courts are already host to age-group training camps and assessment days, they are already used by local schools and charities (when not needed for the performance players who are rarely all there due to tournament commitments), they are already used for junior competitions, for DC and FC training and as a drop in base for elite GB players as required - eg Heather, Laura, Andy and James. The change is not so big. I suspect Downie and BB just want to get rid of a top elite layer as such an arrangement tends to give those within it the belief that they are extra special and entitled whilst at the same time making those outside it feel they can't break in and that their road is blocked. However, I would be surprised if they did not make sure that those within the current top elite layer were not well supported going forward.

EddietheEagle · County player

I was being unfairly hyperbolic and the point wasn't really directed at anyone in particular. The NTC was virtually built by the time Draper took the helm but a vanity exercise all the same. An analysis of how it was conceived and approved would actually be quite an interesting exercise. It points to something fundamentally wrong with the governance and direction of the LTA. Huge sums were committed despite lukewarm support from the membership at large.

To maintain it as an HQ will be an expensive exercise in its own right. Should any sports governing body really be spending so lavishly on itself?

-- Edited by EddietheEagle on Monday 25th of August 2014 07:43:08 PM

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

The governance of the LTA is significantly different now to when the NTC was conceived and approved. Just over a year before the end of Draper's tenure, the organisation was incorporated (think possibly a requirement of Sport England but not sure). Amongst other things this has changed the balance of power slightly between the Chief Exec and the Board, with the latter now being less of a talking/rubber stamping shop and having real influence instead. David Gregson, a respected businessman - ex Phoenix Equity and holder of several charitable positions - is Chairman of the reconstructed board. IMO, it is no surprise that not too long after the incorporation and subsequent appointment of Mr Gregson, Mr Draper felt it necessary to end his stay at the organisation and that said Board chose somebody of Downey's background.

I agree the NTC, beautiful facility that it is, should never have been built. I suspect those who devised it imagined it would be a magnet for all professional British players and top juniors and would be a buzzy place where everyone was spurring each other on. Just never happened, not sure why. However, they are now committed to a 125yr lease and possibly commercially better to stay there than try and move out.

EddietheEagle · County player

Optimist, what you describe amounts to tinkering at the fringes - fiddling while Rome burns. A few, very general, thoughts on LTA decision-making.

1. In the NTC's planning stage, many qualified past players as well as current coaches i.e technically qualified people, opposed it, said it was a bad idea - the likes of Felgate, the Lloyd brothers etc etc, pointing out that we had no players to go in there. In fact, I can't think of any offhand who supported it. Despite the admonitions, the proposal went through. The opposition was therefore not articulated, neither at board nor council level. Moreover, the madcap idea was not stopped by special resolution of the LTA council which presumably possessed the power to do so. No one on the LTA council stood up from the crowd, presumably, because like sheep with their flock mentality, LTA councillors are in the main concerned with their own 'manor' and little beside. How can an unthinking, supine body like that assist in driving a sports federation forward?

2. The LTA claims it has adopted 'some' of the provisions set by modern corporate governance standards. Why only some? There may be some valid reason for that, I don't know. However, it seems clear to me that significant politicking goes on within the organisation. Besides management consultants, Draper also spent a fortune in employing lawyers to silence people.

3. The LTA needs governance and control like any modern, forward-moving enterprise, tailored to a model suitable for a sporting federation. At present, the LTA board comprises 16 people with its large circus of a council above it, governance that has more in common with an Afghan meeting of tribal elders than a modern forward-thinking business enterprise. The number of directors is way, way more than a smallish company would either have or need. Judged by the way the world works outside, that's a fact, not an opinion. By comparison, Microsoft Limited has three UK directors, its main American board ten, including Bill Gates. As a rule of thumb, once you have more than seven people together the situation can start becoming counterproductive as lines of responsibility and control become too diffuse. In my opinion, the LTA board should comprise six to seven members including 2 independents. The other four would cover finance, marketing and technical which are the three essential strands that any business enterprise anywhere has to concern itself with.

4. Well over 300 people are still employed by the LTA, another joke. The Squash Rackets Association (or whatever they call themselves these days) employs roughly 30 people in its Manchester office and another 30 in the provinces. It's a successful sports governing body. Squash has rightly held its head high in recent years. They look after half a million participants who play squash regularly, similar to tennis. A nice, tight organisation with good support coming from Sport England accordingly. Where's the similar association with tennis? Murray won at Wimbledon while tennis participation has further declined. Sport England turned the tennis money tap off recently, hardly a good thing when you could do with another ten or twenty thousand indoor tennis courts to replace those lost in the public sector.

5. Anyway, we're stuck with the building now, a very nice facility as you say. Perhaps a relevant corporate partner with money to burn could step in (step up Mike Ashley, Dunlop/Slazenger owner). Otherwise it's going to be an expensive proposition just to keep an HQ operation going there. Thoughts anyone?

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Update from the LTA;

www.lta.org.uk/News/2014/August/25-08-2014/National-Tennis-Centre-Update/

Doesn't add a big deal but hey . . .

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

OK, it's hardly original but under the 'answers on a postcard' to Eddie, here's one idea based on what happens in the main European countries:

Most European countries have federation tennis academies for juniors.

The problem (and it's way worse in the UK) is that tennis is very expensive and time-consuming and the standard in many local clubs is pretty poor. So, few parents can do all the ferrying to lessons (especially if you have to travel quite some way), as well as the paying through the nose.

In France, say, there are about 5 national academies dotted round the country. These are for about age 12-18. Some go older. Boarding. The best youngsters (who want to) go to these academies and receive serious coaching (all aspects, nutrition, physique, etc. etc.). The top coaches in the country usually work for these academies.

Schooling is also compulsory (up to 18). This is done either via an arrangement with the local secondary school for specially adapted hours (sounds complicated but all the schools manage it and it's the same system for football, rugby etc. so there's quite a lot of them). Or for lessons via correspondence. The Academy provides mandatory lesson times in the schedule and supervised homework etc. etc. but they are not responsible for the actual academic programme - that's done by an accredited 'homeschooling by correspondence' sort of body. (Results are very good).

It can either be subsidised but not free - or completely means-tested. Either system (or both combined) would work though.

The main beneift is you get major economies of scale. No need to give each child £6,000 or whatever the LTA does now. As a bottomless hole, and all spent individually. And which doesn't actually go that far. 'Poor' kids get the same treatment as 'rich' ones. Ultra busy parents' kids get the same treatment as ones who can ferry kids about no problem. All (or a lot of) the stress is removed. And the kids play high-level tennis, as part of a team-spirit group, on a daily basis in a structured top programme.

Lower-ranked kids continue to get support, usually via free extra coaching, so it does not shut the door at 12.

Anyway, just one idea, LTA . . .