Aljaz Bedene

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

RE: Aljaz Bedene

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

EddietheEagle wrote:
Vandenburg wrote:
Yes he will never be British ethnically, I understand that, but neither was Bogdanovic and Greg R,
Nor, incidentally, was Elena Sergeevna Baltacha. No one queried her allegiance or Britishness.

Nationality, and country allegiance, is such an increasingly fluid thing.

Kyle was born in South Africa and moved to the UK age 3.

Tara Moore was born in Hong Kong, moved to the UK at 3, then moved back to Hong Kong at 7. Then moved to the US at age 10 . . .

Joanna Konta was obviously Australian with Hungarian parents.

Not to mention a whole list of players who are British but have spent most of their teenage years away at foreign academies, some with parents who have relocated too and are now based there as a family. Or parents who simply moved elsewhere for work: Virginia Wade spent all her formative years, age 1 - 15, in South Africa.

I think it's brilliant - the great melting pot argument . . .

indiana · Tennis legend

Wow, rarely have a post and reality in a thread been so out of line.

Nice of you to pop in, Vandenburg :)

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Coup Droit wrote:
EddietheEagle wrote:
Vandenburg wrote:
Yes he will never be British ethnically, I understand that, but neither was Bogdanovic and Greg R,
Nor, incidentally, was Elena Sergeevna Baltacha. No one queried her allegiance or Britishness.
Nationality, and country allegiance, is such an increasingly fluid thing.
Kyle was born in South Africa and moved to the UK age 3.
Tara Moore was born in Hong Kong, moved to the UK at 3, then moved back to Hong Kong at 7. Then moved to the US at age 10 . . .
Joanna Konta was obviously Australian with Hungarian parents.
Not to mention a whole list of players who are British but have spent most of their teenage years away at foreign academies, some with parents who have relocated too and are now based there as a family. Or parents who simply moved elsewhere for work: Virginia Wade spent all her formative years, age 1 - 15, in South Africa.
I think it's brilliant - the great melting pot argument . . .

Don't forget Dame Flora! wink

Sim · County player

The main reason to have "rules" on Nationality in sports is to stop (or try and prevent) people changing nationality just to further their careers, and/or earn more money, or to allow richer countries to "poach" good players from poorer countries - Pacific Islanders playing rugby for New Zealand, Kenyan and Ethiopians athletes becoming citizens of Qatar spring to mind. Further back Zola Budd, and the rushed application to get her registered for the Olympics is another example.

Most sports have some rules which mean that you can not represent one country one year, change your citizenship and represent another country the next year.

So according to the current rules Aljaz can gain British citizenship and put GB after his name but not play in the Davis cup as he has already played for Slovenia. If he/GB appeals against the deadline that was imposed and wins the legal argument then that is fine otherwise he will have to live with the rules.

I don't buy the argument that he only played in a dead rubber - he played in the Davis cup. If a footballer plays for England in the last match of a World Cup qualifier when they are already through (or already out) he can't then play for Scotland (or Slovenia) just because the result was not important.

So if Aljaz has lived here for a number of years and decided he wants to stay here and become British then I will welcome him. The Davis cup rules are upto the ITF to define.

imoen · Admin: Moderator+Tennis Legend

Stircrazy wrote:
imoen wrote:
Always nice to see a success story from a player coming back from injury issues, good luck to Aljaz in the final.

Given his nationality switch appears to be imminent please could one of our linguistics experts explain to me how to pronounce his name? I've no idea on Bedene but have assumed Aljaz is pronounced something like "Al - ee - ash" but the commentators yesterday were using the Spanish pronunciation of the J to come up with "Al - har" so I'm thoroughly confused now!!
This suggests that the surname is pronounced roughly as SMC suggests, though as the narrator is a Brit, I'm not sure how much store you can set by it! Don't be misled by the "Ali" nickname: as there's what's known as a "breve" (a diacritic in the shape of a little curved hook) over the "z" of the first name when you see it written as it should be, I believe that it's meant to be pronounced "Al-YASH", with the "j" acting purely like the "j" in the German for "yes", ja, and not meant to introduce an extra syllable, while the stress falls on the second syllable (hence the upper case). One thing's as certain as [the fact that] God made little apples: the two together offer Sue Barker & Co almost unlimited scope to mangle them, come Wimbledon, or until such time as the man himself sees fit to put them right!

Thank you Stircrazy (and others). I like to be able to at least attempt to correctly pronounce any tennis players names and I put far more faith into the suggestions here than anything I hear from commentators all of whom seem to conspire to provide as many variations as possible - perhaps in the hope that at least one of them will get it right at least once per match

steven · Tennis legend

Stircrazy wrote:
imoen wrote:
Always nice to see a success story from a player coming back from injury issues, good luck to Aljaz in the final.

Given his nationality switch appears to be imminent please could one of our linguistics experts explain to me how to pronounce his name? I've no idea on Bedene but have assumed Aljaz is pronounced something like "Al - ee - ash" but the commentators yesterday were using the Spanish pronunciation of the J to come up with "Al - har" so I'm thoroughly confused now!!
This suggests that the surname is pronounced roughly as SMC suggests, though as the narrator is a Brit, I'm not sure how much store you can set by it! Don't be misled by the "Ali" nickname: as there's what's known as a "breve" (a diacritic in the shape of a little curved hook) over the "z" of the first name when you see it written as it should be, I believe that it's meant to be pronounced "Al-YASH", with the "j" acting purely like the "j" in the German for "yes", ja, and not meant to introduce an extra syllable, while the stress falls on the second syllable (hence the upper case). One thing's as certain as [the fact that] God made little apples: the two together offer Sue Barker & Co almost unlimited scope to mangle them, come Wimbledon, or until such time as the man himself sees fit to put them right!

Never trust the pronunciations on Strictly - up to last year (so I assume this year too), they couldn't even pronounce Ola correctly (it should be Ola not Oh-la) ... I think SC has got it about right, though I would have guessed (assuming the breve over the z works the same as a similar diacritic in Polish) Al-YAZH with the 2nd A pronounced like an "ah" - no doubt, he will feel forced to anglicise it in some way when/if he switches though, so we may never hear the correct pronunciation from him!

steven · Tennis legend

Searching a bit, here is a Slovenian pronouncing it

www.forvo.com/word/aljaz/ (to my ears, this matches my Al-YAZH guess)

... but at 1:07 in this video, here is his girlfriend pronouncing it ...

www.facebook.com/permalink.php

... she seems to put a bit more of an "ee" sound at the start of the J (a bit like the Strictly commentator, though not nearly as much as he does)

As for the surname, I think Bedene is probably pronounced Be-DAY-ne ("e" = short e, almost "eh") - definitely three distinct syllables, so not Be-DEEN, as the UK commentators tend to call him.

EddietheEagle · County player

Sim wrote:
The main reason to have "rules" on Nationality in sports is to stop (or try and prevent) people changing nationality just to further their careers . . . . . . .

I imagine Mr Bedene's motive for becoming a British national is precisely that - just to further his career. What other reason could there be? As a full EU member, Slovenia presents no barriers to movement or obstacles to a tennis career as such. But it's a tiny country, smaller than Wales and with a smaller population than Birmingham. You can only be so big a fish in a pond that size. Maybe he's had some kind of encouragement too, from the LTA, to make the switch as they once unsuccessfully tried with Djokovic.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

EddietheEagle wrote:
Sim wrote:
The main reason to have "rules" on Nationality in sports is to stop (or try and prevent) people changing nationality just to further their careers . . . . . . .

I imagine Mr Bedene's motive for becoming a British national is precisely that - just to further his career. What other reason could there be? As a full EU member, Slovenia presents no barriers to movement or obstacles to a tennis career as such. But it's a tiny country, smaller than Wales and with a smaller population than Birmingham. You can only be so big a fish in a pond that size. Maybe he's had some kind of encouragement too, from the LTA, to make the switch as they once unsuccessfully tried with Djokovic.

I don't know Eddie - I wouldn't assume that it's just because of his career that he wants to switch (although that may well be the main reason).

I know various English people living in France who've switched nationalities to become French, one because they wanted to be able to vote, one because she didn't want to be a 'foreigner', one for reasons I never could quite fathom - it's quite a personal thing.

That said, it obviously will do his career some good to have the kudos and rarity value of being a 'Brit' in the main draw at Wimbledon, so I'm not saying you're wrong, just that it's not always straightforward.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

EddietheEagle wrote:
Sim wrote:
The main reason to have "rules" on Nationality in sports is to stop (or try and prevent) people changing nationality just to further their careers . . . . . . .

I imagine Mr Bedene's motive for becoming a British national is precisely that - just to further his career. What other reason could there be? As a full EU member, Slovenia presents no barriers to movement or obstacles to a tennis career as such. But it's a tiny country, smaller than Wales and with a smaller population than Birmingham. You can only be so big a fish in a pond that size. Maybe he's had some kind of encouragement too, from the LTA, to make the switch as they once unsuccessfully tried with Djokovic.

I have lived in Spain for 14 years, but deep down I still feel "British" and would support GB/England against Spain in whatever sport was being played. However, I know several other Brits here, particularly younger Brits who have come here as children or in their teens, who feel more Spanish than British. One such person in particular arrived here at the age of 8, told his parents at the age of 11 that if they ever moved back to the UK he would "divorce" them and move in with his friends, and at 18 has decided to take out Spanish citizenship. There is no ulterior motive in that, it is just that he feels more Spanish that British.

I am sure it is a generational thing and the younger age at which you move, the more likely you are to "adopt" that nation as your own. If I am not mistaken, Aljaz has been living and training in the UK since he was 17 or 18 years old. I guess there are a number of factors at play here of which his career prospects may well be one of them, but I doubt it is the only one.

indiana · Tennis legend

As Eddie said, as a Slovenian national, there were no real barriers to Aljaz's travel or tennis carrer. And indeed he has lived and trained in GB for many years and is progressing really well ( and probably would have more before without his injuries ), all without UK citezenship.

There may be some limited career advantages in switching, but how much further support or backup at his age and place in his career he will get by formally becoming British is debatable.

I think a big element here is indeed that he simply feels British, and tgat's fine with me.

And I am one who hates the 'easy' transfer of allegiance that can happen in say athletics and don't get me started on rugby union ! ) when it is often very clearly about career and finance.

Oakland2002 · All-time great

No problem at all with such a transfer of allegiance regardless of the motivation, anything to increase the profile although we shouldn't start counting chickens until.... My frustration is that he isn't a product of our development process and with a population of 70 million we should have to be quite so opportunistic. I accept that part of our problem is socio- economic diversity and access to junior tennis I don't feel that ethnicity is an issue a player showing promise or athleticism will be snapped up its opportunity

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Completely agree, Oakland. No issue whatsoever, legally or ethically, with changing and representing a new country. And may it help GB tennis - it certainly needs it.

But, as per my post above re Tara, Joko and Virginia Wade, and then adding James W, Heather, Andy, not to mention some of our best junior prospects (Katie Swan, Ryan ?, Gabi Taylor etc. etc) - when you see how many or our players have spent considerable portions of their formative tennis years abroad, it really begs the question about our development process. Not that there aren't good home-grown players too, it's just that you barely ever see a French or German youngster going abroad to live and train - a country loses a lot of the impetus and benefit of having top players (i.e. inspiring other players etc.) if they are not here.

indiana · Tennis legend

I have no issues at all with Aljaz's proposed switch, as I've made clear, or indeed these other names CD mentions.

But I do have issues with too 'easy' transfer of allegiance and look to sporting governing bodies to control this. I would say this is most relevant to team sport where I want to watch Scots or Brits competing against 'true' say Kazakhstan or Qatar reprentatives or New Zealand rugby union players ( there have been various Scottish rugby union err arrivals that I have had issues with too ). Too lax and for me it makes a bit of a mockery of international sporting competition.

I think I am fairly tolerant about this, accepting many genuine links and moves, which inevitably leaves a grey area for me sometimes, but clear flag of convenience switches and / or often ridiculously short residence requirements eave me cold, reducing my support.

Mainly a sporting body issue, though I accept where a government have given citizenship there is little they can do other than accept this, particularly if the person has never represented a previous country.