LTA bias to men starting on tour?

junior · Intermediate Club Player

LTA bias to men starting on tour?

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

"I find it hard to see how the likes of a player ranked below the top 100 keeps sustaining a career without big backing from mummy and daddy or from corporate sponsors or sugar daddies."

Well, obviously, different federations fund differently.

Although I completely agree with junior's point about family money, the French federation, for instance, are pretty generous up to the age of 22 or 23.

Although the policy keeps changing, few years back, for instance, a quite large group of 'talented' 18 years olds were granted 45k a year. THis is a nice guaranteed sum that will cover a lot, especially as (usually) all their coaching etc in France (and sometimes abroad for tournaments) is covered by federal arrangements. And they nearly all receive city council and regional council funding too, which will be a few thousand. And then also local corporate sponsorship which will be 1k or so.

So, for them, it's quite a while before parents have to cough up. Although - yes - it will always be miles more expensive that football, say, whatever you do. (Again, though, parents in France, Spain, Italy etc. expect to fund their child till about 25, at least. I'm not saying everyone can, obviously, but in the same way, we expect to here until 18 or 21, the age in France is about 25).

junior · Intermediate Club Player

you make a good point coup droit, unfortunately its not quite as simple as comparing Britain to France to Spain. Whilst you are right, Spain does have a tendency to "force" one to become independent at a later stage in life, this is due to the country and economy being bad, we are a poor country. This does not mean that one can have tons of cash thrown in their general direction to pursue a lost cause dream. In this case we are very realistic, if a player will make it or not unlike in the UK, if not then academics route is a cheaper alternative and also assistant/junior jobs etc. A very savy businessman is Mr Mouratoglou as he has deals with the French and Swiss Federation, I believe once that I heard that the annual price of his academy covers costs of up to 3 trips to tournaments as well, this is the only place in the world who does this and also for example the Swiss federation will only sponsor their players to attend his academy.

In Spain most funding is done via trips to tournaments and the Federation covering training packages within its own training systems etc. Not throwing large amounts of money at people, a local small academy was recently sponsoring a top 100 Spanish tennis player, I knew the player as a kid and to see the videos of the clinics they asked him to do to keep up appearances, his face said many things. This is perhaps why the level in spain is much higher, we dont have the money to travel to tournaments as much so our high level stays locally as well as the foreign interest in our training and tournament circuits, the LTA tries to mimic this then their players come over here and get smashed by players technically much lower than their level.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I agree with most everything you say, junior. And I wasn't making point about Spain as a funder of players (that was just France) but as a different parenting view.

And your point about the level of visiting GB ranked players, who get thrashed by locals, made me laugh.

I used to be part of the county committee in France and one of the jobs was awarding visiting players a French ranking so they could take part in French money events.

THere's an equivalence table that's supposed to be 'official' and correct. What a laugh!

I used to downgrade the UK player by about two notches each time (which is not just two numbers but two levels, because it's like a pyramid). And STILL most used to lose in two sets straight off. What was funny was that quite a lot of their coaches used to get annoyed, and were offended, at first, and I tried to explain that I was doing them a favour. But they got the idea pretty quickly.....

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Just highlighting how precious some other places are with their funding and also how in some instances little funding can go so far and do so much hence actually motivating players, whereas in UK lots of funding apparently goes nowhere and players feel restricted.

I believe the old rankings equivalent was the ITN system, would expect LTA to get their players ranked higher than the level they play, they are in cahoots with the ITF after all. This just highlights that British players stay locally and beat one or two no hopers to get funded out the wazoo, then when they have to leave the island is a different story. So, I don't think any bias exists within them actually having no idea about tennis, players and how to invest and assist well

-- Edited by junior on Sunday 24th of January 2021 11:14:19 AM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

junior wrote:
Just highlighting how precious some other places are with their funding and also how in some instances little funding can go so far and do so much hence actually motivating players, whereas in UK lots of funding apparently goes nowhere and players feel restricted.

I believe the old rankings equivalent was the ITN system, would expect LTA to get their players ranked higher than the level they play, they are in cahoots with the ITF after all. This just highlights that British players stay locally and beat one or two no hopers to get funded out the wazoo, then when they have to leave the island is a different story. So, I don't think any bias exists within them actually having no idea about tennis, players and how to invest and assist well

-- Edited by junior on Sunday 24th of January 2021 11:14:19 AM

Is there a thing in Britain that because of the money and system involved, the best athletes dont actually play tennis? So we have a limited base and the ones that are best are best of a pretty mediocre bunch? So they think how great they are, perpetuated by the exclusive system, but when they play French, italians, Serbians , Croatians they soon come down to earth. And most dont have the mental toughness to back up failures in technique, so they crumble easily. British players have always been famous for brittle mental toughness , which is why someone like Andy, Dan, Fran, are so refreshing.

our game rewards and protects mediocrity and doesnt encourage talented athletes to enter or stick with it. A talented athlete who hasnt really played the game, if they get into it, would soon get laughed at, beaten (as they havent played) , bullied, and leave again. As opposed to nurtured and developed.

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Is there a thing in Britain that because of the money and system involved, the best athletes dont actually play tennis? So we have a limited base and the ones that are best are best of a pretty mediocre bunch? So they think how great they are, perpetuated by the exclusive system, but when they play French, italians, Serbians , Croatians they soon come down to earth. And most dont have the mental toughness to back up failures in technique, so they crumble easily. British players have always been famous for brittle mental toughness , which is why someone like Andy, Dan, Fran, are so refreshing.

our game rewards and protects mediocrity and doesnt encourage talented athletes to enter or stick with it. A talented athlete who hasnt really played the game, if they get into it, would soon get laughed at, beaten (as they havent played) , bullied, and leave again. As opposed to nurtured and developed.

"our game rewards and protects mediocrity and doesnt encourage talented athletes to enter or stick with it" this in the UK more than anything

The problem with the UK in this sense is the training, they focus mostly on technique to justify the ludicrous price of a tennis lesson, this way the coaches spend lots of time one on one with the kid and convincing the parents so that they return for more classe and more money and then from here they gets lots of ideas in their head etc. British players are given the tools for the job but no idea how to use them, then when playing matches they're expected to win even though they have no idea how to handle the situation or apply their abilities. its no wonder they lose emotional control under such pressure to achieve something they cannot even understand. The coaches aren't involved or invested in their players (how can you be with one private lesson a week and never seeing them play a match) the whole ranking system is faulty and the LTA dont know what it means to be a good tennis player, the players are left chasing leprechauns. Not to mention the whole idea of "coaching awards" etc, this is only about a coaches image not their ability or level, who in theory judges a coach on their level? it should be their players not guys in hats in the LTA offices. My personal opinion is British players lack discipline/structure both on and off the court, bear in mind most pro tennis players from a young age have never lived a "normal" life, going to school, free time etc. They come from a lot of wealth and have spent their lives constantly working, under pressure etc, anyone would expect a bit of "showboating" from italians, or chasing girls/kicking the football around from French players to ease a bit of pressure and just be kids/people when they are not forced to be robots, this allows them to apply even greater in the constant situations high level performers find themselves.

The thing about Andy and Dan (I don't know the girl) is that they seem to not really be interested in the bs LTA politics, especially now as Dan heads into his later career he seems even less interested in it and is playing the best level of his life. This is the way it should be, such interference from the governing body can't help them play better surely

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Fran is Fran Jones, just qualified for Aussie open. Fight and mental toughness
Seem to be part of her character.

indiana · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
Yes, I too would be interested to hear specifics as to why there could be so much to disagree about Spireman and Jon's thoughts about Judy.
eg. implications that she has got to where she is just by being Andy and Jamie's mother are not that. What are her shortcomings that have become apparent in say her coaching or management skills that mean she should not play some more significant part in UK tennis moving forwards? She's certainly hardly the "be all and end all" at present, and nor do I see it said that she should be, even if some may think we could do worse.

Lots of interesting words from junior and others re general matters but re Judy, I see nothing specific added at all re her shortcomings, just yet more sniping about anything she has got, LTA and media wise, being just down to Andy and Jamie's mother.

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Maybe it's not best for you to ask the opinion of someone involved in tennis and has actual experience and knowledge in the matter Indiana.

As far shortcomings: little knowledge or experience for her position, seems generally like an unpleasant woman and her interests are her own. Not three things that one wants in an ambassador of the sport and our governing body, in my opinion that be

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

junior wrote:
Maybe it's not best for you to ask the opinion of someone involved in tennis and has actual experience and knowledge in the matter Indiana.
As far shortcomings: little knowledge or experience for her position, seems generally like an unpleasant woman and her interests are her own. Not three things that one wants in an ambassador of the sport and our governing body, in my opinion that be

Indy shouldn't ask because it puts you in a difficult position and you'd rather not answer?

Or he shouldn't ask because, for some reason, he's not supposed to ask questions from someone who has tennis experience? (When you'd think that's the very person whose opinion you should ask).

junior · Intermediate Club Player

Difficult position for me? The LTA and its affiliates speak for themselves by making blunder after blunder and sit around and patting themselves on the back for it. This is unlikely to be any different during my lifetime. Bit of a laughing stock to us the rest of the world, I've trained more than my fair share of LTA players in recent years.

Instead of passing off as 'sniping' what is actual in depth descriptions of the shortcomings and problems within the system and some of my personal opinion, maybe should be more open to reading it fully than desperate to jump in to defend a system that could be better run by a particularly unorganized family of beetles

-- Edited by junior on Sunday 24th of January 2021 07:19:41 PM

-- Edited by junior on Sunday 24th of January 2021 07:20:41 PM

SuperT · Futures level

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think pretty much everyone on here agrees with your comments, Junior, about the shortcomings of the LTA and the failings of the system within British tennis. We have been debating it for years. What I think Indie was asking was specific reasons for your extremely harsh criticism of Judy Murray. "She seems like an unpleasant woman and her interests are her own" is a very subjective comment. I wonder how well you actually know her? "Little knowledge or experience for her position" is more specific. However my understanding is that her main involvement with the LTA are the "She Rallies" initiative, designed to encourage more women to train as coaches, and "Miss-Hits" designed to encourage 5 to 8 year old girls to start playing tennis. Now I would have thought she's pretty well qualified for both these roles which are firmly rooted in grass roots and club tennis? Does she also have an LTA funded role working with elite athletes that I'm not aware of? If so I for one would welcome any information you can give us as you are clearly more closely involved than the rest of us. Thank you

junior · Intermediate Club Player

I don't know her personally no, maybe she's mother teresa, all I see is the same as all other tennis people see, thats where/when one must concern themselves with the image they give and its influence. In this case my opinions come from having seen very similar tennis parents as such, plus extensive knowledge of the training systems/centres Andy went through, plus knowing several of his former coaches and having met him personally a few times.

The position comment was about working with heather watson I think it was before becoming fed cup captain, she's made quite a varied curriculum for herself in very different aspects of our game, and now appears to have settled into a role as a "face of the LTA" forming parts of coaching courses and clinics/podcasts etc. Definitely agree the female initiatives are good ideas and her involvement definitely seems to be working out welll, until the case studies arrive and the numbers are going the wrong way, then its raise time for all LTA people and affiliates.

-- Edited by junior on Sunday 24th of January 2021 09:48:45 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

junior wrote:
Difficult position for me? The LTA and its affiliates speak for themselves by making blunder after blunder and sit around and patting themselves on the back for it. This is unlikely to be any different during my lifetime. Bit of a laughing stock to us the rest of the world, I've trained more than my fair share of LTA players in recent years.

Instead of passing off as 'sniping' what is actual in depth descriptions of the shortcomings and problems within the system and some of my personal opinion, maybe should be more open to reading it fully than desperate to jump in to defend a system that could be better run by a particularly unorganized family of beetles

-- Edited by junior on Sunday 24th of January 2021 07:19:41 PM

-- Edited by junior on Sunday 24th of January 2021 07:20:41 PM

I hate getting involved in you said, I said, discussons when there is more meat to discuss but I read right through this thread, evidently more carefully than you did.

My "sniping" comments were clearly just regarding your comments on Judy, not the system in general, which from very much the outside I have often been critical of rather than defended. And you had offered nothing in depth regarding her and still haven't really. Other tennis parents are not Judy

Much of this discussion is pretty interesting but please don't be so dismissive of other forum members often with no cause. Here I asked for more information about something which you had indicated you had experience of. Yes, I have thought that Judy had done generally well and could be of more use so was curious to learn of supposed serious potential negatives from someone who I thought might add to my knowledge, no agenda.

CD and SuperT have interpreted my posts correctly as to them basically being - what are the are the negative issues with Judy? no more, no less.