It would be a shame for josh Goodall to hang his gloves up just yet !

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

RE: It would be a shame for josh Goodall to hang his gloves up just yet !

wolf · Tennis legend

Salmon wrote:
wolf wrote:
Salmon wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I love our Dom/Marray/Murray/Skupski lot and if the system allows you to do it then why not? But the fact that Andy Murray was chosen above all the GB doubles specialists in the Davis Cup, and won, says a lot.

Or the fact that in the one tournament where the top talents actually care about doubles, two of the last three winners have been the noted doubles specialists Federer & Wawrinka, and Massu & Gonzalez.
Funny that doubles specialists teams had a H2H lead of 19-15 against teams compromising of just singles players in the last 3 Olympics.

Not a surprise, those guys concentrate on doubles all year long. If doubles and singles were two poles apart, you would expect a 33-1 or something like that in favour of doubles, which is precisely what would happen if Jamie Murray or Mike Bryan were given WCs in Olympics singles.

Obviously players who are good at both singles and doubles are going to play singles. That's where the money and attention is. So doubles specialists are not going to be able to beat top 100 singles players on a regular basis, otherwise they would be top 100 singles players.

Clearly players can be better at singles than they are at doubles, and vice versa. Clearly singles players can also be very good at doubles, and not vice versa although some may have been in the past and/or could compete at a lower level in singles. I fear we are both stating the obvious here, I just fail to understand what your original point was.

-- Edited by wolf on Saturday 12th of October 2013 10:38:50 PM

SMC1809 · All-time great

Talking of gloves, do you type with your gloves on Gary?

Salmon · Tennis legend

I think we are more or less in agreement with each other.

My point was that singles and doubles test a largely identical set of skills (subtle differences are obviously there) and you just need to hone them to your preferred shape. And I think the people who are at the top in doubles today are simply there because certain individuals don't prefer to play doubles for various psychological and economic reasons. If they did,* I have little doubt that Murray, Djoko and Nadal would be in the top 10 in doubles, but the same doesn't hold true for people like Soares, Mike Bryan or Paes, who wouldn't be in the top 200 in singles if they tried it right now.

The basis for this conjecture is the fact that despite putting in minimal effort, people like Fed are reasonably competitive in doubles against people who train for doubles throughout the year. The converse isn't true because whenever people like Zimonjic try out singles qualies for the heck of it, they normally fail to make a mark against the top players.

* they'd need to train for doubles (and play regularly) to do that, not just turn up sporadically for tournaments.

-- Edited by Salmon on Saturday 12th of October 2013 11:38:25 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

Leon got away with it ? Leon got away with it ?! Sorry, Gary, I just don't accept that. He made a definitive choice, and it is not just speaking retrospectively to say for me it was the right choice.

Thankfully, I believe Leon has proved an excellent Davis Cup captain, who is prepared to make decisive decisions with seemingly one aim in mind, and one I heartally approve of, i.e. victory for GB.

I appreciate you really like doubles, and like teams. But I really think that is clouding your judgement here.

I think it was clear that most folk that commented here thought that our most likely winning doubles pair before the tie was Andy and Colin, with the biggest doubt about that partnership from afar being Andy having to play three matches, which he clearly coped with very well.

A good sporting team captain ( or maybe chief ececutive ) really must be able to look at issues like this objectively. I feel Leon does, and that has aided GB's recent success.

wolf · Tennis legend

Salmon wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I love our Dom/Marray/Murray/Skupski lot and if the system allows you to do it then why not? But the fact that Andy Murray was chosen above all the GB doubles specialists in the Davis Cup, and won, says a lot.

Or the fact that in the one tournament where the top talents actually care about doubles, two of the last three winners have been the noted doubles specialists Federer & Wawrinka, and Massu & Gonzalez.

Funny that doubles specialists teams had a H2H lead of 19-15 against teams compromising of just singles players in the last 3 Olympics.

tennis gossip · Improver

Bit soon to be encouraging Harry to concentrate on Doubles, he's only 18, and is a long long way from showing his full potential in singles.

He probably hasn't even finished developing physically yet, or matured, most 18 year old boys are all over the place mentally!

It's great he's working with Josh, lets give that a few years hey and see what happens! Then, maybe when Harry reaches the grand old age of 20 he'll be in a better position to make that decision for himself.

indiana · Tennis legend

So, 19-15. Indeed not very impressive for the doubles specialists.

Salmon · Tennis legend

wolf wrote:
Salmon wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:
I love our Dom/Marray/Murray/Skupski lot and if the system allows you to do it then why not? But the fact that Andy Murray was chosen above all the GB doubles specialists in the Davis Cup, and won, says a lot.

Or the fact that in the one tournament where the top talents actually care about doubles, two of the last three winners have been the noted doubles specialists Federer & Wawrinka, and Massu & Gonzalez.
Funny that doubles specialists teams had a H2H lead of 19-15 against teams compromising of just singles players in the last 3 Olympics.

Not a surprise, those guys concentrate on doubles all year long. If doubles and singles were two poles apart, you would expect a 33-1 or something like that in favour of doubles, which is precisely what would happen if Jamie Murray or Mike Bryan were given WCs in Olympics singles.

indiana · Tennis legend

I think that's called an own goal LOL.

indiana · Tennis legend

Yes,

a) As Salmon says the skill sets to play top class singles and doubles are essentially very similar.

b) As wolf says players who are extremely good at both singles and doubles are going to play singles.

Leading from a) and b) The very top singles players are in general likely to be very good doubles players if they grooved themselves in doubles, and generally the very top doubles players would have wished to be top singles players but have not made it in that discipline.

So, you have the situation that very good singles players pretty much thrown together for the Olympics are close to matching overall established doubles players, many of whom would have been established pairs. Clearly quite a number of partnerships would have been rather thrown together because of the same nationality demands of the Olympics, but the players would still come in as seasoned doubles players.

I have nothing against doubles per se and have really enjoyed watching top class live doubles played by yes doubles specialists.

But when some folk get overdefensive ( I am talking generally here, not patrticularly about this latest discussion ) and / or start suggesting doubles players in GB get a raw deal ( in spite of so many switching and fashioning a decent career in doubles ) I do feel these thoughts have to be heavily questioned.

wolf · Tennis legend

They do have a similar set of skills, but for example Djokovic has got by in singles despite being nowhere near as naturally gifted at volleying as say Jonny Marray.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would debate that doubles specialists would be able to challenge anywhere near the top in singles, so I'm not sure why what keeps getting brought up.

The only thing that is worth a debate is whether would current doubles specialists be challenging for top honours if singles players concentrated on doubles a lot more, formed partnerships, practiced etc. I think they would.

-- Edited by wolf on Sunday 13th of October 2013 12:10:29 PM

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

Wolf that's a good point and the recent trend is that good singles players

in top200 have increasingly competed In doubles and the standard is rising all the time .

When you are a pro player you are In business if you are a good businessman you have to go where the money is !

GB has a tradition for top doubles pairs i would like GB to produce grand slam winning all GB doubles pairs that could be the key to winning the Davis cup in the future

A1 tennis academy · Satellite level

Yes how did you work that out ?

Its tough to get it always perfect on an iPhone

john · Top national player

wolf wrote:
They do have a similar set of skills, but for example Djokovic has got by in singles despite being nowhere near as naturally gifted at volleying as say Jonny Marray.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would debate that doubles specialists would be able to challenge anywhere near the top in singles, so I'm not sure why what keeps getting brought up.

The only thing that is worth a debate is whether would current doubles specialists be challenging for top honours if singles players concentrated on doubles a lot more, formed partnerships, practiced etc. I think they would.

-- Edited by wolf on Sunday 13th of October 2013 12:10:29 PM

That he has done, just about.

Good to see that Djoko is able to "get by" with his limited volleying ability