ATP World Tour Finals

korriban · Challenger level

ATP World Tour Finals

A131 · Intermediate Club Player

Just recently down at my local club one of our members announced that she had managed to secure tickets (prior to Murray's withdrawal) for the ATP World Tour Finals - not sure for what day or time but I have a feeling it's one of the days before the semi-finals. She was clearly looking forward to it and during a conversation she just said 'I hope I see somebody good' - even emphasising the word good. It made me wonder if she follows the same sport I do or realises the entry criteria by which the players need to get there. Now maybe she intended to say that she liked to see someone very well known or what we often call a household name and we all know who they are, but I think we can all accept that if you are one of the top 8 players in the world (or even top 30/40 maybe more) you deserve to be labelled a good player and that just because someone isn't a household name doesn't mean they are not worth watching which was how it came across. I would be quite happy to see Berdych play David Ferrer even if she might not be.

Maybe she was hoping to see Murray - which is understandable - and I just wanted to ask other fans if they think the event would still sell out even without his presence ie not actually qualifying as opposed to pulling out through injury? I feel his presence has undoubtedly help the event to sell but without him? Would you still go?

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I liked the 'see someone good' comment.

Bit off topic, but it reminds me of a friend (quite a bit older!!!) who used to play national level tennis in the 70s (in France) and said that at the beginning of the 70s everyone who watched his matches when he played the circuit thought he was amazing, he walked on water, they'd never seen tennis of that level (not only his matches, I should add, all of the other players' too).

However, by the end of the 70s, no one was impressed any longer, he was basically chopped liver. Because, of course, everyone had telly now and had got used to seeing the world's best players on the box. Suddenly, WR 1200 or so didn't look so good . . . (Now, your friend might see the world's best and, if Rafa or Nole, were wearing masks, have no idea what or who she was watching which is yet a further problem . . . ).

I hope it's not just Andy that draws everyone. Like Korri says, it's a brilliant event.

john · Top national player

Umm korriban. You can queue up on the day and watch Wimbledon for about a tenner, can't you??? One of the most accessible major sporting events in the world, the only where you can still queue for tickets on the day and I believe even show court tickets early in the tournament are only about £50 or so.

Whereas last time I checked, the O2 tickets were ridiculously pricey considering you only see 2 matches in a session I believe. Can't remember exactly but remember looking last year and thinking I would never ever pay that price.

DF · Tennis legend

At Wimbledon you are not guaranteed a place if you queue and there were warnings this year not to queue as there was no space!

steven · Tennis legend

john wrote:
Umm korriban. You can queue up on the day and watch Wimbledon for about a tenner, can't you??? One of the most accessible major sporting events in the world, the only where you can still queue for tickets on the day and I believe even show court tickets early in the tournament are only about £50 or so.

Whereas last time I checked, the O2 tickets were ridiculously pricey considering you only see 2 matches in a session I believe. Can't remember exactly but remember looking last year and thinking I would never ever pay that price.

I agree, I thought Korriban was being a bit harsh on Wimbledon, which has tickets that are pretty good value for the amount you get to see and, as well as allowing people to queue, has a public ballot (which I assume accounts for most of the tickets) and even sells a few tickets online a day or two before.

All major sporting events have to cater for corporates to some extent. As for debenture holders, they fund the big (and generally very successful) capital projects, so while the subdued crowds are a bit of a pain, I don't think Wimbledon gets too much wrong. I guess they could make the ballot a bit more obvious (and personally, I'd prefer a 1st come 1st served online system that allowed you to pick the day you went instead of being offered one at random, but that might not be practical) but then genuine tennis fans would find it even harder to get tickets, though it would get live tennis to a bigger audience, which we should probably be in favour of!

O2 and Queen's tickets are far worse value, I would say - and the proportion of corporates (particularly obnoxious corporates) at Queen's seems to be a lot higher than at Wimbledon even if the actual numbers are lower.

A131 · Intermediate Club Player

Some really good comments there guys - much of which I agree with - thanks very much.

As Steven says you have to cater for corporate bigwigs to some degree and though some of the tickets are a bit pricey you are seeing the very best players in the world and generally much better value than say Premiership football where you can still get charged £60 by te likes of Arsenal and other clubs to see 90 minutes of pretty poor stuff.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Somewhere in another thread a couple of months ago, I posted about the possibility of the Fed not making the O2 finals this year. At the time, I was probably just stirring the pot for discussion to some extent, but his defeat to Monfils in Shanghai suggests that this is now a very real possibility.

Tsonga has already gone further then Fed in this tournament and has a very winnable QF to come against Florian Mayer. Either Wawrinka or Raonic is also guaranteed to go at least 1 round further as they play each other in the L16.

It is feasible that Fed could end up in 9th place and with Gasquet also breathing down his neck, anything is possible.

Wouldn't it be ironic if in the end, it is Andy's injury and subsequent withdrawal that makes the difference to Fed either qualifying or not.

korriban · Challenger level

john wrote:
Umm korriban. You can queue up on the day and watch Wimbledon for about a tenner, can't you??? One of the most accessible major sporting events in the world, the only where you can still queue for tickets on the day and I believe even show court tickets early in the tournament are only about £50 or so.

Whereas last time I checked, the O2 tickets were ridiculously pricey considering you only see 2 matches in a session I believe. Can't remember exactly but remember looking last year and thinking I would never ever pay that price.

I'm sorry but with no guarantee of any tickets, and very long queues, could I suggest the balance of people in the line are from London and the South East. Could I also suggest that the balance of people inside the venue look the same and sound the same, compared to the O2, which has a very mixed group of people - old and young, GB and foreign, tennis nuts and sports nuts, middle classes and everyone else, corporates and non corporates, families and individuals/couples. There may be a public ballot, but it seems to be the same socio-demographic seem to get lucky every single year.

I love Wimbledon - I just wish more new people could have a realistic chance of attending, without having to go through hoops. Imagine there was a groundswell of public interest in tennis across the entire spectrum of society, perhaps 3 or 4 times today's demand (a bit like the Olympics), then what? We see the same people turning up year after year (I'm excluding the members and debenture holders here) who always seem to manage to get tickets.......I agree the O2 isn't cheap but it beats travelling across the country to queue up for hours on end with no guarantees whatsoever.

john · Top national player

Yes, it's all a conspiracy. There are people trained to roam along the Wimbledon queue and root out anyone who looks "working class" with a brief to making sure these people are not allowed to enter the hallowed gates of SW19.

Not only this, but they carry out means tests on all entrants to the public ballot so they can ensure only the right clientele win tickets. They are devious these Wimbledon organisers. Can't be allowing genuine tennis fans the opportunity to queue overnight and watch around 9 hours of tennis for £15 now can we, that would be horrible and can't happen.

Meanwhile, over at the O2, it certainly doesn't cost a minimum of £50 and anything up to £500 for a couple of best of 3 matches now does it?

indiana · Tennis legend

The Wimbledon public ballot possibly fixed ?!

Get Neil Harman on the case, I say !

korriban · Challenger level

john wrote:
Yes, it's all a conspiracy. There are people trained to roam along the Wimbledon queue and root out anyone who looks "working class" with a brief to making sure these people are not allowed to enter the hallowed gates of SW19.

Not only this, but they carry out means tests on all entrants to the public ballot so they can ensure only the right clientele win tickets. They are devious these Wimbledon organisers. Can't be allowing genuine tennis fans the opportunity to queue overnight and watch around 9 hours of tennis for £15 now can we, that would be horrible and can't happen.

Meanwhile, over at the O2, it certainly doesn't cost a minimum of £50 and anything up to £500 for a couple of best of 3 matches now does it?

Was there a public ballot for the Olympics? Yes. Wimbledon too.

Was the ballot itself fixed? No. neither is Wimbledon.

Were cheap tickets and tickets of all prices available for every event? Yes. I'm sure its the same at Wimbledon.

Were members of the public discriminated against by way of class, income, race, etc in the public ballot? No. And I'm sure Wimbledon is completely above board in the way it administers the ballot.

So obviously, whilst accepting that demand will always be greater than supply for popular events, were we happy about how the ticketing process worked at the Olympics for the general public, the true sporting fans? - i.e. those with no connections or links to the IOC, the sports authorities, the great and the good, the sponsors, the games supporters, etc. No we weren't - it was a complete fix. In a similar way Wimbledon rations its "public" tickets far too severely IMO in favour of its own stakeholders and constituents. Conspiracy: certainly not. Status Quo & maintenance of the establishment: certainly.

I love Wimbledon. I go as much as I can. I am part of the establishment in many ways. I just wish more outsiders got a look in.

indiana · Tennis legend

As far as I am aware the vast, vast majority of Olympic tickets went to the general public.

It was pretty much a success story, although of course there were many moans, especially when folk saw empty spaces in prominent competitor and Olympic Family areas, which they did seem to find some solutions to later on. It remains pretty awe inspiring that first MORNING of athletics in the Olympic Stadium in front of a virtually full enthusiastic stadium. Of course Jess Ennis starting out was a pull, but very far from a full explanation and the following mornings well matched this.

When events are well oversubscribed, it's easy to moan, especially when folk who consider themselves "true fans" miss out. Though, often when there's a real will there's a way, eg. going onto foreign sites for the Olympics and at Wimbledon the Aussie supporters seem to have remarkable success in getting to watch their players almost wherever they are playing.

Yes, of course the queue is much more convenient to south east of England folk. But one of the best days / nights I have had is many years ago when I went down overnight from Edinburgh to London, went out to Wimbledon, queued with really enthusiastic "true fans" of the game, had a great day following the outside courts and returned home overnight again. I am sure I am one of very many from far flung parts that have trodden that path.

To me, not a lot really wrong with the Wimbledon system, though as Steven suggested I don't really know why you can't go for specific courts and days in the public ballot.

Maybe some issues are self perpetuating by people believing or being made to believe somewhere isn't for them / is in some ways biased against them, certainly very much more than is the case.

steven · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
As far as I am aware the vast, vast majority of Olympic tickets went to the general public.

It was pretty much a success story, although of course there were many moans, especially when folk saw empty spaces in prominent competitor and Olympic Family areas, which they did seem to find some solutions to later on. It remains pretty awe inspiring that first MORNING of athletics in the Olympic Stadium in front of a virtually full enthusiastic stadium. Of course Jess Ennis starting out was a pull, but very far from a full explanation and the following mornings well matched this.

When events are well oversubscribed, it's easy to moan, especially when folk who consider themselves "true fans" miss out. Though, often when there's a real will there's a way, eg. going onto foreign sites for the Olympics and at Wimbledon the Aussie supporters seem to have remarkable success in getting to watch their players almost wherever they are playing.

Yes, of course the queue is much more convenient to south east of England folk. But one of the best days / nights I have had is many years ago when I went down overnight from Edinburgh to London, went out to Wimbledon, queued with really enthusiastic "true fans" of the game, had a great day following the outside courts and returned home overnight again. I am sure I am one of very many from far flung parts that have trodden that path.

To me, not a lot really wrong with the Wimbledon system, though as Steven suggested I don't really know why you can't go for specific courts and days in the public ballot.

Maybe some issues are self perpetuating by people believing or being made to believe somewhere isn't for them / is in some ways biased against them, certainly very much more than is the case.

I think your last paragraph applies to a lot of things in the UK (probably elsewhere too, but maybe particularly the UK) - lots of people seem far keener to moan about the elitism of it all and about presumed unfairness than they are to actually get off their backs and do something about it.

N.B. I hasten to add that I am not trying to imply that any of this applies to korriban - just that maybe not all of the propaganda put out by those people who do love to moan should be taken at face value.

As well as events with limited numbers of tickets available, the moaning-rather-than-doing disease also applies to more important things, like applying to universities - the one I went to was desperate to get more applications from a wider range of backgrounds (they 'selfishly' just wanted the most able candidates, what a strange concept ...) but it seems lots of people from 'non-traditional' backgrounds were put off applying by myths about what the interviewers were looking for. Maybe this myth did apply to the odd (in both senses of the word!) interviewer, but not to the vast majority of them.

Take the Olympics too. I know lots of people who, like me, took things into their own hands and put a lot of effort into researching the possibility of getting tickets from other EU countries - we were all Olympics fanatics who really appreciated being there, all the effort was well worth it and many of us (having ended up doing better than expected) gave a few tickets to kids' charities too so that children who would never have been able to go otherwise got the chance to go along. Admittedly, they weren't the tickets to the biggest events, but hopefully they still had a big surprise and a brilliant time!

So what happened when I offered to get Olympics tickets for a few people who hadn't been finding it easy? (and also offered out the odd ticket that had come free after I got them) In general, the people who had been moaning the loudest turned out not to be interested (the only thing they would have been happy with were men's 100m final, 6 tickets together, front row on the finishing line, less than £10 each - I'm exaggerating, but not much - a least one of those things applies in each case!) and the people who did take up the offer were the people who hadn't been moaning in the first place.

Those moaning about the prices of Olympics tickets also turned their noses up when I suggested Paralympic tickets instead ('not interested in that, Paralympics are a bit crap') and managed to miss out on a really good value treat as a result.

Anyway, that all reinforced my impression that some of the moaning was moaning just for the sake of it.

I do think the London 2012 ticketing was mishandled a bit (though it must be just about impossible it is to make a PR success of that part of the process whatever you do), but I thought the worst bit was when they gave first option in the first-come first-served part of the process to those who hadn't got any tickets yet. It looked fair at first sight but basically meant that the 'glory hunters' who had only applied for the most popular events in the initial ballot got a chance to go for the best tickets left, whereas those who had followed LOCOG's recommendation to include less popular events in their ballot application (much more likely to be true Olympic fans, I would argue) and had maybe got a couple of football tickets got left with the 'dregs' of the first-come first-served tickets a day or two after the "Bolt or nothing" crowd had had a go. A sad case of pandering to the loudest moaners at the expense of those who had originally applied in the right spirit.

Oops, that turned into a bit of a rant - sorry! wink

A131 · Intermediate Club Player

korriban wrote:
john wrote:
Umm korriban. You can queue up on the day and watch Wimbledon for about a tenner, can't you??? One of the most accessible major sporting events in the world, the only where you can still queue for tickets on the day and I believe even show court tickets early in the tournament are only about £50 or so.

Whereas last time I checked, the O2 tickets were ridiculously pricey considering you only see 2 matches in a session I believe. Can't remember exactly but remember looking last year and thinking I would never ever pay that price.
I'm sorry but with no guarantee of any tickets, and very long queues, could I suggest the balance of people in the line are from London and the South East. Could I also suggest that the balance of people inside the venue look the same and sound the same, compared to the O2, which has a very mixed group of people - old and young, GB and foreign, tennis nuts and sports nuts, middle classes and everyone else, corporates and non corporates, families and individuals/couples. There may be a public ballot, but it seems to be the same socio-demographic seem to get lucky every single year.
I love Wimbledon - I just wish more new people could have a realistic chance of attending, without having to go through hoops. Imagine there was a groundswell of public interest in tennis across the entire spectrum of society, perhaps 3 or 4 times today's demand (a bit like the Olympics), then what? We see the same people turning up year after year (I'm excluding the members and debenture holders here) who always seem to manage to get tickets.......I agree the O2 isn't cheap but it beats travelling across the country to queue up for hours on end with no guarantees whatsoever.

I think it's great that I can still (should I choose to do so) go online and book a ticket for the O2 where as at Wimbledon I can't do that - not even for a ground pass. I know there are perhaps good reasons for that but nonetheless it's a shame.I have some respect for those that queue and it's also a shame/disgrace even that some of real fans - like the ones who post here and who follow the sport 12 months of the year not just when Wimbledon is on - should have to go to these lengths to get in. I suspect a lot of those who enter the ballot aren't genuine tennis fans - only Wimbledon fans who pay little interest once its over or who do nothing for the game and who and helps deprive the real fans from obtaining tickets, but is there a better way? Possibly there is a better way, and I don't know what that is yet, but I don't think there will ever be an ideal way. The only trouble I have with the O2 is you still get the likes of Pippa Middleton and other celebrities latching on who only seem to care about the big players/events but I realise that seems to be how it is now. It is one of the reasons I love Birmingham so much - still a celebrity free zone.