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korriban


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Men's Tennis - Too much Impact of Big Serving?
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I know this is a topic which is probably less relevant than 10-15 years ago, as court speeds have generally declined and the balls have changed enough to negate the impact of the very very fast servers of yesteryear. The game appears more balanced than it perhaps was a few years back.

However, a quick look at the ATP stats revealed some interesting secondary data which is either a massive coincidence or very revealing. We all know that the 2 most notable servers in the men's game, the ones the other professionals mention more than any others, are Ivo Karlovic and John Isner. I'm sure their serve stats remain impressive, perhaps with Karlovic less than at his peak a few years ago, but still in the top 5 or 10 I'm sure.

The return of serve stats are fascinating. Of 89 current players analysed against 4 criteria % of return games won, % of BPs converted, % of first serve returns won, % of second serves won

Karlovic, 89th; 89th; 89th; 89th

Isner, 88th, 88th, 87th, 87th - and he's a recent top 10 player.

I accept that return of serve may not be a strength for either, but on % of return games won, there is even clear blue water between these 2 and the person in 87th place! They are significantly poorer. Does this surprise everyone as much as me? Is this is saying that the physical attributes required to be a great server (6 '10!) mean you are significantly disadvantaged in all other aspects of being an all-round tennis player? Or is this saying that they have been so used to winning service games so easily for so long, that they have never needed to or had the ability to develop a reasonable return game? Or is it something unique to these 2 men, and a complete anomaly? Andy Roddick often got too defensive, but is this partly because of "living" with the safety blanket a monster serve.

The reason I brought this up is because of previous discussions re Josh Goodall and Naomi Broady, who have strong serves, but I wonder if defensiveness in the rest of their games might have developed as a by-product of this (i.e. I can hold my serve and just wait for a TB or mistakes from my opponent) over time.



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steven


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You might be right in the last paragraph (I've haven't seen either of them play live often enough to know) but it's more likely to be the case that being freakishly tall like Isner and Karlovic causes as many problems on return (higher centre of balance making movement more awkward, harder to get down to low balls, etc) as it gives them advantages on serve ... and neither Naomi nor Josh (even less so) is 'freakishly' tall in the same way, so the same considerations may not apply.

Also, if a player who isn't right at the top (i.e. isn't big 4) is near the top of the serving stats, it's more or less inevitable that they will be near the bottom of the receiving stats (and vice versa) else they would be winning so many points overall that they would be one of the big 4.



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indiana


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It is interesting that Karlovic's and Isner's stats are so extreme, and I have in the past noticed how poor particulatly Karlovic's return stats were.

I do think it is much more a question of inability on return, or more particularly relative inability generally when not being heavily assisted by their serve. I can't see why they would have the attitude that they haven't needed to develop a better return game, because clearly if they had they could have been ranked higher and been generally more successful.

I think it is possibly a combination of their physical attributes not helping their general game and them just frankly not being particularly gifted outwith their serving.

Re the title of the thread, I'm fine with big servers like these today, it does actually give some variety. But I couldn't be doing with having a lot of bang bosh tennis like in the past on some much faster courts, particularly Wimbledon in days past. So many Wimbledon matches in the past, certainly outwith the very top players meeting, were to my mind really poor spectacles with little in the way of rallies.

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indiana


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One other thing I would say is that big serving in itself is almost divorced in many ways from general tennis ability. It is "simply" a question of thumping the ball as hard and accurately as you can into that box on the other side of the net from an initially fixed position, almost a separate sport within a sport.

We wouldn't expect a top javelin thrower to have very good all round tennis abilty, so to a lesser extent I don't see that we should expect top thumpers of serves into that box to have particularly good all round tennis abilty. Or at leadt natural tennis abillity, since clearly Ivo Karlovic will have worked more at it than Steve Backley ever did !

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