Doping Again !

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Doping Again !

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

x.com/schnejan/status/1772241095910469871

A lot of people, me included, still concerned over Halep coming back

www.thetimes.co.uk/sport/football/article/why-return-of-halep-gives-me-little-confidence-in-fight-against-doping-fks5msd0k

Sorry behind a paywall and not sure how to do the archive thing!

the addict · Tennis legend

JonH comes home wrote:
x.com/schnejan/status/1772241095910469871

A lot of people, me included, still concerned over Halep coming back

www.thetimes.co.uk/sport/football/article/why-return-of-halep-gives-me-little-confidence-in-fight-against-doping-fks5msd0k

Sorry behind a paywall and not sure how to do the archive thing!

Here you go JonH (Just go to archive.ph and paste your link into the box)

https://archive.ph/vzOiw

Tanaqui · Intermediate Club Player

JonH comes home wrote:
x.com/schnejan/status/1772241095910469871

A lot of people, me included, still concerned over Halep coming back

www.thetimes.co.uk/sport/football/article/why-return-of-halep-gives-me-little-confidence-in-fight-against-doping-fks5msd0k

Sorry behind a paywall and not sure how to do the archive thing!

Here's the non-paywalled archive version https://archive.ph/vzOiw

(To get that, copy the link for the page you want to archive, go to https://archive.ph/, paste the link in the box and hit save. If it's already been archived, it'll come up pretty quickly. Otherwise it will trundle through some processing before giving you the archived page.)

Edit: Ha, TA was faster!

-- Edited by Tanaqui on Monday 25th of March 2024 09:25:14 PM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Thanks both!

the addict · Tennis legend

I was only quicker because I didn't do the explanation. Too lazy as watching matches on Sky.

emmsie69 · ATP level

The Times article is excellent. Sadly, because I've always liked Simona, she is in my mind a drug cheat.
I didn't realise that the winners of matches didn't get tested until later in the tournament.
That is certainly something that needs to change. Drug tests should be random, if they're predictable then they are almost certainly worthless in catching top players out.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Tuesday 26th of March 2024 07:51:20 AM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
The Times article is excellent. Sadly, because I've always liked Simona, she is in my mind a drug cheat.
I didn't realise that the winners of matches didn't get tested until later in the tournament.
That is certainly something that needs to change. Drug tests should be random, if they're predictable then they are almost certainly worthless in catching top players out.

-- Edited by emmsie69 on Tuesday 26th of March 2024 07:51:20 AM

The journo, David Walsh, was of course the guy who investigated and "caught" Lance Armstrong, so has deep credibility in this area

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

emmsie69 wrote:
The Times article is excellent. Sadly, because I've always liked Simona, she is in my mind a drug cheat.
I didn't realise that the winners of matches didn't get tested until later in the tournament.
That is certainly something that needs to change. Drug tests should be random, if they're predictable then they are almost certainly worthless in catching top players out.

The comments of one ToL reader (they never appear in the archived versions of articles):

Really informative article.

As you are testing athletes at physiological extremes there can be grey areas where it would be reasonable to support the athlete (eg. Ventolin doses as in Froome case particularly when adjustment for urine concentration didn't happen or endogenous testosterone) but this is one of the most clear cut cases of doping.

I hadn't realised that the timing of testing in tennis is related to how likely you are to go deep into the tournament, but if this is true then it's crazy and the unexpectedly early loss could be relevant. The half-life of roxadustat is about 12hrs, so even 2 days after the last dose there would only be one sixteenth of the dose left in the system while the biological effect (increased haemoglobin) will last weeks.

Roxadustat is very uncommonly used v EPO as a medicine hence it is highly unlikely to get into a product unless the company intended it. In addition the dose clearly was sufficient to cause a biological effect on the passport so we aren't looking at traces here.

This is a really disappointing decision and I'd be equally angry if I were Wozniacki.

Nix · Futures qualifying

It's very disappointing if you effectively make it impossible for those at the top of the tree (who can afford the best legal representation) to dope with impunity. This decision goes beyond giving the benefit of the doubt in my opinion. Surely everyone is now going to say their sample was contaminated with a supplement. How can they possibly ban anyone for longer than nine months from now on?

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

With respect to Halep, is there an appeal to the appeal? Given the evidence seems strong, cant Wada or the ITIA or whomever it is, appeal this to some body? Given Taras judgement is being appealed

One thing here for me is that the credibility of CAS and its processes seem highly questionable. Are they really fit for purpose?

My other big question is re this issue of contamination - if its accepted that it can happen, surely it cant happen on an industrial scale? Are the tolerances around the level at which contaminated products in a manufacturing site start to become unbelievable too low and where we have to say contamination cant have happened. Ive been around Pharma manufacturing sites and food manufacturing sites , for clients and recently (past month) and they are held to an incredibly high level of hygiene and I would say - in the factory itself- contamination is nigh on impossible, in the UK at least. For Pharma, these are global industries and so the standards are global, with large global companies making these products - contamination is nigh on impossible.

emmsie69 · ATP level

JonH comes home wrote:
With respect to Halep, is there an appeal to the appeal? Given the evidence seems strong, cant Wada or the ITIA or whomever it is, appeal this to some body? Given Taras judgement is being appealed

One thing here for me is that the credibility of CAS and its processes seem highly questionable. Are they really fit for purpose?

My other big question is re this issue of contamination - if its accepted that it can happen, surely it cant happen on an industrial scale? Are the tolerances around the level at which contaminated products in a manufacturing site start to become unbelievable too low and where we have to say contamination cant have happened. Ive been around Pharma manufacturing sites and food manufacturing sites , for clients and recently (past month) and they are held to an incredibly high level of hygiene and I would say - in the factory itself- contamination is nigh on impossible, in the UK at least. For Pharma, these are global industries and so the standards are global, with large global companies making these products - contamination is nigh on impossible.

Apparently yes in very limited circumstances.

Judicial recourse to the Swiss Federal Tribunal is allowed on a very limited number of grounds, such as lack of jurisdiction, violation of elementary procedural rules (e.g. violation of the right to a fair hearing) or incompatibility with public policy.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

You can't just go on appealing and appealing, Jon - the arbitral system stops there - it has to stop somewhere - everyone agrees to that when they agree to be governed by the arbitral system

As emmsie says, and as was mentioned in this forum before, if there is procedural unfairness / breach of human rights etc, then there is recourse to the court system, but that's extremely rare

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Coup Droit wrote:
You can't just go on appealing and appealing, Jon - the arbitral system stops there - it has to stop somewhere - everyone agrees to that when they agree to be governed by the arbitral system

As emmsie says, and as was mentioned in this forum before, if there is procedural unfairness / breach of human rights etc, then there is recourse to the court system, but that's extremely rare

Fair enough and don't disagree. I haven't followed the process closely enough to know where it stands in terms of steps taken - it seemed the relevant tennis bodies (ITIA?) had appealed Tara's judgement being turned over so I wasnt sure if Halep's process was at the stage or more advanced in terms of rights of appeal being exhausted.

And sorry, I hadn't read back up the forum, or taken those previous comments referred to in, apologies.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

For me though, the contamination thing just doesnt ring true. Ok, maybe in terms of the South American meat situation. But pharma products being contaminated by other products the manufacturer makes? I dont get that, it isnt how production works in the manufacturing world.