Brits in Challengers in 2012

steven · Tennis legend

Brits in Challengers in 2012

indiana · Tennis legend

Yes, very interesting and as Steven says hopefully a low point, and it will be interesting to see how performances compare next year.

Evo winning just 2 challenger matches all year is one thing that jumps out at me, and before someone pipes up that everyone gets at Evo, and he does this and that, it is really just because most of us think he has the ability to be doing so much better ( and more often playing at a higher level than futures ) that frustrates and invites comment.

Little doubt to my mind that at the moment for what they in general produce on a tennis court, James and Jamie are the next 2 Brits after Andy. James though, of course, has had his injury problem and Jamie has had a ( to me surprisingly ) relatively poor second half to the year.

It would be for me very good if Boggo could at least have one more year of showing what he is really capable of, if the hunger is still there, and of course particularly good for the future if Oli can come to play regularly and win at this level, and Evo too who is still relatively young though time does inexorably move on.

-- Edited by indiana on Tuesday 13th of November 2012 05:01:50 PM

Count Zero · Tennis legend

are we expecting too much to young? do people get caught up with the few superstars who make the breakthrough young and cast players aside far too early.
Obviously my own experiences and personal knowledge are around Boggo, and whilst for many years he was well supported financially, he was not really supported in other regards.

I remember the time he was kicked out of the LTA back in 2004, he was still 19 then. ranked around 280. He'd withdrawn from a challenger QF with food poisoning. but was due to play a futures in Greece the next week. He phoned to say he was too sick to travel to Greece and the response he got was 'come to the airport and prove you are sick'. As most people would he told them to shove it and the rest is history as they say. The thing is i was there. Alex was really really sick. but the LTA didn't trust him. At that challenger he had 2 great wins b4 pulling out, over guys ranked 109 and 156. yet they were prepares to kick him out.

now look at these amercians that Steven highlighted. a swathe of pro's around the 100-250 mark (about 16). woulsnt the LTA love to have something like that, but the players need supporting, especially as there is no support for tennis in this country financialy. players can't get sponsorship, they have to trvael to france and germany to get privte club matches that pay decent money etc.

-- Edited by Count Zero on Tuesday 13th of November 2012 06:45:27 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

No, just the LTA proving how much ***s they still can be on an ongoing basis, though that story about Boggo refusing to go to the airport to "prove" he was sick and then getting kicked out the LTA is a disgrace, which I would sincerely hope would be dealt with differently today, but who knows...

And, yes, i am sure they do do some things very well.

-- Edited by indiana on Tuesday 13th of November 2012 09:36:18 PM

Shhh · Challenger level

A sad but very interesting read Steven. Will be interesting to compare where we are this time next year. It may be after that when we see the corner truely turned but, we can live in hope!

steven · Tennis legend

Reading Indiana's post has just indirectly reminded me that in a discussion of the performance of Brits other than Andy at levels above Futures, we shouldn't forget things like Evo's wins in Davis Cup and qualification for Zagreb ATP, Wardy's R1 win at Wimbledon, Jamie's R1 wins at Queen's and Eastbourne and a couple of other decent performances to qualify or almost qualify for ATPs.

However, while performances like that are very welcome, the only route to the top 100 (or even the top 150) that doesn't involve either being a potential top 5 players or a lot of luck is to consistently go deep in Challengers, which is why I think it is worth looking at Challenger performance in the most detail at the moment.

Count Zero · Tennis legend

it's a little depressing for, but i've had the feeling that our success at challenger levels had gradually been declining. i wonder if any of that is to do with the change in points whereby winning events is worth so much more (eg a SF at a bottom challenger is 29 points but at W/RU in a 15k+h is 35/20) and also possibly the reduction in home events.

steven · Tennis legend

I'm sure the reduction in the number of home Challengers has something to do with it (and there was a bit of a reduction in Challengers generally once the financial crisis began to bite in countries where they are often sponsored) but I think the change to the ranking points system to weight SFs, finals & titles so much more heavily has had a much bigger effect.

Because players in the lower reaches of the top 100 are likely to pick up far more points by regularly going deep in Challengers than by winning the odd round in ATPs, the seeded players at Challengers have tended to be stronger than they used to be, and that factor plus the fact that the same ranking points effect makes going deep in Futures more likely to keep the points ticking over than 'risking' playing Challengers is bound to tempt more players on the borderline to stay in Futures - Brits like Josh Goodall who are likely to go deep in most Futures they enter but struggle at Challenger level are a prime example.

The problem being, of course, that this is something of a dead end - it may keep you in the top 300 but it won't ever get you into the top 150.

I think LTA funding may be a cause too, in the sense that while they pay lip service to the undeniable fact that success is tending to come at older ages for players from all countries (*), their funding tends to heavily favour those who might manage to do well at Challenger level in a few years' time over those who are already playing at Challenger level. The latter no doubt need more money to travel, not less, if they want to play a full schedule because Challengers are further apart and, unlike Futures, you don't tend to get 2 or 3 in a row in the same country or US state.

(*) In this context, it is worth noting that the top 4 Brits are all 25 or over and Oli is the only Brit aged under 22 who is in the GB top 17.

steven · Tennis legend

Count Zero wrote:
are we expecting too much to young? do people get caught up with the few superstars who make the breakthrough young and cast players aside far too early.
You won't be surprised to hear that my answers to that are 'yes' and 'yes'!
I remember the 2004 incident too, though I don't know whether I was aware of the exact details at the time. I'd have told them where to shove it under the same circumstances too!
A very big problem back then and for much of the noughties was that the LTA was always under siege from the media (especially around the time of Wimbledon and home DC ties - in many ways the girls were lucky that Fed Cup Group I ties got played in southern Europe and now in Israel) and instead of having the courage of their convictions, sucking it up and doing the right thing, they had a habit of lashing out and publicly scapegoating individual players to show that they were 'getting tough' - this of course had the precise effect on their self-esteem that you'd think an organisation trying to bring through young sportspeople would be trying to avoid at all costs!
Boggo bore the main brunt obviously (for the twin cardinal sins of a) being the best of the rest and b) having a name that could be shortened to 'Boggo'), but Naomi Broady and Dave Rice suffered too and there were no doubt other instances that we have since forgotten. I'm not saying the LTA shouldn't have taken action if they really felt some players were badly out of line and wasting their talent, but they should have dealt with it in private and told the media to bog off.
Fortunately the constant media hounding of the LTA (and even more fortunately, the resultant scapegoating) seems to have stopped over the last year or two, simply because there's been more British success. Whether that means the LTA has changed much or whether it's just a lucky coincidence of various players making breakthroughs at the same time, I don't know (probably mainly the latter!), but at least it seems to be allowing British tennis to operate in a less febrile atmosphere.
I agree with you that the US seems to have a lot of decent young players coming through and that players need supporting - I don't mean mollycoddling, I mean supporting so that they can make the most of any talent they have.
I don't believe the received wisdom that most of the players outside the UK have no support and are incentivised to win matches by the fear that otherwise they will go hungry. I'm sure there are a few players who really do live like that (and it often sounds like Fitzy may be one of them), but I bet most of them have parents or sponsors who support them, at least to some extent.
If anything, the Brits who get no (or minimal) support are probably in a worse position than those in other countries and other sports because people have been fed the media line about 'mollycoddled British tennis players' for so long that those who might be tempted to sponsor tennis players think there's no need because the LTA must already be showering the player with money.

Count Zero · Tennis legend

the sponsorship thing has been touched on recently too, in some of fitzy's threads mainly. one of the stumbling blocks for me is why sponsor a lower ranked player. the media coverage they get is mostly non existent or negative. and also there is no local incentive either. they are not a local team etc. they may come from an area, but they play internationally.

It seems you are mostly hoping for a interested generous benefactor who isn't really looking for a return as such. Or other occasional lucky breaks, Alex for a while was sponsored by a hotel group who had tennis courts and i guess where looking for a little extra promotion.

Perhaps the US isn;t the best example as they do love their sports over there, including college sports, so it maybe gives the players more options.

Shhh · Challenger level

A bit off topic but, does anyone know how Fitzy's e-bay auction ended up?

indiana · Tennis legend

And my comments :

"I'm sorry, but this is very poor with regards to the Jamie Baker comments.

Jamie has had 4 Davis Cup wins, not just a win against Argentina in the World Group, but Zonal Group victories against Turkey and Tunisia, and you haven't said you were ( and haven't been elsewhere ) restricting comments to World Group matches.

Jamie contracted a serious illness in 2008, just after he reached WR 220, and although back on court in a few months was clearly seriously effected for a very long time and dropped to as low as WR 891 in 2009.

He fought his way back and reached a career high of WR 186 in June this year. This year, re all the British players after Andy Murray, he has played more matches at challenger level than any other and won considerably more, currently 15 as against 8 for James Ward and 7 for Alex Bogdanovic.

He probably hasn't had the second half of the year that he would like and is currently WR 251. However, he is likely to end the year as GB No 2 ( once points from last year come off ), if largely due to James Ward being out with injury ( which partly explains his current ranking ).

Worst, the comments re "seems to be drifting away from mainstream tennis altogether" are total ruibbish, given his regular appearances and more wins than any other Brit in Challengers and no sign at all that his appetite has been diminished."

PS : I seem to have repeated many of the points that Steven made over various tweets. So trust that he's got the message ( tweeted to me that he was misinformed ) and that the Jamie Baker page will be changed smile

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 14th of November 2012 07:51:29 PM

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Shhh wrote:
A bit off topic but, does anyone know how Fitzy's e-bay auction ended up?

Yes. It was a bit of a disaster. The top bid was only about £850 which was no good to man nor beast (nor Fitzy) so the auction was cancelled.

steven · Tennis legend

Just seen this http://www.thesports-locker.com/2012/11/14/the-ten-nearly-men-of-british-tennis/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-ten-nearly-men-of-british-tennis after Barry Flatman (Times) retweeted the link - the other journos who were begged for a retweet haven't done so yet, somewhat to their credit.

Obviously we are all concerned about the fact that Andy is the only Brit in the ATP singles top 250 but surely if you're going to make that point, you'd try to get most of your facts right and supply some context.

Just to take the Jamie Baker write-up there, it says his win against Calleri was his only win in DC (in fact, he's won 4 DC singles rubbers, and Chris Eaton is credited with a Group 1 win later, which suggests the stat wasn't supposed to be limited to World Group ties) ... and then it says "at the age of 26, seems to be drifting away from mainstream tennis altogether.", which seems more than a bit harsh for a player who fought his way back from serious illness not too long ago, took out his old career high in June and has been by far the most successful Brit in Challengers this year - even if that is partly because, sadly, he hasn't had much competition.

indiana · Tennis legend

steven wrote:
Just seen this http://www.thesports-locker.com/2012/11/14/the-ten-nearly-men-of-british-tennis/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-ten-nearly-men-of-british-tennis after Barry Flatman (Times) retweeted the link - the other journos who were begged for a retweet haven't done so yet, somewhat to their credit.
Obviously we are all concerned about the fact that Andy is the only Brit in the ATP singles top 250 but surely if you're going to make that point, you'd try to get most of your facts right and supply some context.
Just to take the Jamie Baker write-up there, it says his win against Calleri was his only win in DC (in fact, he's won 4 DC singles rubbers, and Chris Eaton is credited with a Group 1 win later, which suggests the stat wasn't supposed to be limited to World Group ties) ... and then it says "at the age of 26, seems to be drifting away from mainstream tennis altogether.", which seems more than a bit harsh for a player who fought his way back from serious illness not too long ago, took out his old career high in June and has been by far the most successful Brit in Challengers this year - even if that is partly because, sadly, he hasn't had much competition.

Oh. I'm on the case, just formulating some comments to add under the Jamie Baker ramblings furious