Great stuff by all the boys, but I find it interesting that Alex has only accrued 11 ranking points for qualifying and winning his first round match at a 50k challenger compared with 17 if he had won a 10k futures event. On the womens circuit these results would have given him 16 points compared to 12 for winning a 10k. Is this fair ? or is the ladies ranking points system fairer in this instance ?
Whether we agree if its correct or not, I think you have to play the system a little bit. Unless you are going deep in Challengers consistantly (SF or above) you should be prepared to play some futures still to maintain your ranking. Looking at JB he has started to make some QFs again but his higest point score is a win at a GB 15k future. Yes the prize money may not be as great but if you are ranked around the 250 or below mark 4 future wins in a year will give you 100 plus points and a real solid base to ensure you can get into challengers as well
Its no different between playing challengers or main tour but just at a higher level, you dont usally see someone ranked 100 getting all their points on main tour events they will score heavily at the challenger level for a base,
If one purely meant fairer in the sense of reward for who you have to beat / how difficult it is to earn points, I'd probably say the women's is fairer.
However, I actually prefer the men's. It gives the chance of the base that mikeyp talked about in futures that say Dan Cox and Josh Milton built, before presumably trying to time their more continual move to challengers when that base was good enough to let them have a reasonable run of challengers.
To me, to then at least reasonably hold your position longer term at challenger level you need to be getting through a couple of rounds every so often. Jamie has shown what happens when you get stuck at the 2nd round stage ( his ranking slumped ) and how he is now progressing with breaking that barrier a few times, backed up by going back for some future points.
I have no real problem at all with future titles and finals maybe "overrewarding" folk, as it gives that base, and longer term at least challengers will always be the aim, with long term just playing futures not really viable. If futures didn't "overreward" it would make it more difficult to move from futures to challengers and take longer to build back your base if you have difficulties at challenger level. To me, you actually do want the reward vs difficulty level to be higher at the lower level to aid movement from one level to the next.
I think it works pretty well, and again as mikeyp indicates, if you can then first get good enough to hold that challenger position then get better and win titles / reach finals of challengers, there is probably a similar conundrum that hits you as you get to the cusp of being a good challenger / aspiring ATP tour player. You can get good challenger points, but ultimately you want that just to be your base for moving to ATP level.
I think it works pretty well on the men's side, and let's players come through the stages as their abilty improves. Clearly the best players can and do come through the women's side too, just I see nothing wrong in "helping" this ( indeed it being a distinct positive ) by being relatively generous to lower ranking tournaments ( I must admit I've not really followed through how their points in "challengers" against tour level compares with the men )
The women's side actually in general would be better all round if they maybe maintained their early round points, but upped the later round points. As has been discussed before, some of us think they generally have a far too linear points reward tructure within tournaments. This has been discussed before, but by more rewarding winners / finalists, it would then also help the overlap the men have in being relatively more rewarding to good players at lower levels.
Essay over
-- Edited by indiana on Tuesday 23rd of August 2011 11:16:52 PM
I can see what Indiana is getting at, but surely it would be better to have a points system that was as fair as possible (i.e. as close to a system like Akhenaten's as possible) than to have one that means you have to work out how to 'play the system' if you want to maximise your ranking, even if the latter encourages the kind of tournament selection that Indiana is talking about and even if that kind of tournament selection is the right thing to encourage.
Neither the ATP nor the WTA systems get anywhere close to being fair to anyone other than the very top players. Some ways in which they are unfair are the same, e.g. the strength of tournaments at any given level below Masters tend to wary widely depending on where they are, which surface they are on, when they take place (e.g. before or after a slam on that surface, how many other tournaments are on that week, etc), while other ways in which they are unfair are different, e.g. (to name but two well-known ones) with the ATP, you tend to need to beat stronger opponents at Challenger level to get a given number of points, while with the WTA, you get 40 points for winning QR1 at a slam c.f. just 10 more points for QR2 or FQR wins.
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Steven, while I really like to see the Akhenaten rankings, and the latest ones have generally yet again confirmed my and probably others' thoughts as to who the official rankings "overrank" and "underrank" based on who they have beaten and lost to.
But I must ask would such a rankings system ( or similar ) be really practical and / or popular ? Players would be going into tournaments, yes playing for the titles and the prizemoney, but also having no idea how their ranking would be adjusted by their week's work, dependant as it would be on the rankings of the opponents you faced.
Think about leading into a slam entry date, you kinda know what you have to achieve in the last week or two to get to a cut-off point. Here it would be so much up in the air, you could win a tournament but if it opened up and you mostly beat very lowly ranked players it wouldn't adjust your ranking as much as you would hope.
And it would not be a transparent easily understood system for the fans ( nor I suggest the players too ). A couple of years ago the ATP simplified the rankings points ( arguably doing a good job of it or not ), but Akhenaten type rankings wouild just totally reverse any idea of simplificatiopn. for this fairness idealism. I suggest it would not be a popular change, people like clarity. Fans, like on this site, would not be able to follow/ anticipate the following week's rankings as they currently do. Basically players and fans would be fairly in the dark until the computer did its work each week.
Sorry, to me you need a clear points system. One slam title awards the same as another, one 10K future the same as another, etc and the ranking reward is clear. Yes, it doesn't work out "fair"or rather equitable most of the time from tournament to tournament in who players have to beat, and the points themselves could maybe be rejigged a bit, but I think you are seeking too ideal a fair / level playing field that asks too much. Life is not fair, the tennis rankings are arguably not really fair in quite a nuimber of instances, but it works out pretty well in my opinion.
"Fairness" may come fom an Akhenaten type system based on the opponents you faced, but hopefully that will never come to be for official rankings, and I don't imagine it will.
-- Edited by indiana on Tuesday 23rd of August 2011 11:11:27 PM
Steven, while I really like to see the Akhenaten rankings, and the latest ones have generally yet again confirmed my and probably others' thoughts as to who the official rankings "overrank" and "underrank" based on who they have beaten and lost to.
But I must ask would such a rankings system ( or similar ) be really practical and / or popular ? Players would be going into tournaments, yes playing for the titles and the prizemoney, but also having no idea how their ranking would be adjusted by their week's work, dependant as it would be on the rankings of the opponents you faced.
Think about leading into a slam entry date, you kinda know what you have to achieve in the last week or two to get to a cut-off point. Here it would be so much up in the air, you could win a tournament but if it opened up and you mostly beat very lowly ranked players it wouldn't adjust your ranking as much as you would hope.
And it would not be a transparent easily understood system for the fans ( nor I suggest the players too ). A couple of years ago the ATP simplified the rankings points ( arguably doing a good job of it or not ), but Akhenaten type rankings wouild just totally reverse any idea of simplificatiopn. for this fairness idealism. I suggest it would not be a popular change, people like clarity. Fans, like on this site, would not be able to follow/ anticipate the following week's rankings as they currently do. Basically players and fans would be fairly in the dark until the computer did its work each week.
Sorry, to me you need a clear points system. One slam title awards the same as another, one 10K future the same as another, etc and the ranking reward is clear. Yes, it doesn't work out "fair"or rather equitable most of the time from tournament to tournament in who players have to beat, and the points themselves could maybe be rejigged a bit, but I think you are seeking too ideal a fair / level playing field that asks too much. Life is not fair, the tennis rankings are arguably not really fair in quite a nuimber of instances, but it works out pretty well in my opinion.
"Fairness" may come from an Akhenaten type system based on the opponents you faced, but hopefully that will never come to be for official rankings, and I don't imagine it will.
The main objection to the last ATP rankings system 'simplification' was that it didn't simplify things and it didn't make things significantly fairer either! (perhaps even the opposite depending on your point of view)
I mean, it did do away with some tournament levels, but it added in commercially-induced and/or completely pointless complications like all the stuff associated with 500-series tournaments (e.g. got to count 4 of them, of which one has to be post-USO ... but only if you were in the top 30 at the previous year-end) that makes trying to calculate the rankings yourself much more of a minefield, such that even the ATP themselves have made mistakes at times.
I'd be in favour of a little more complication if it made the rankings demonstrably fairer - it was the combination of more complication for no gain in fairness that was the problem for me.
However, I agree that an Akhenaten-type system wouldn't be popular with players or with most fans (though it must be fairly practical if Akhenaten can keep producing his ratings without the IT resources of the ATP!) for the reasons you give, among others.
Hence I wasn't trying to suggest that the ATP or the WTA should adopt an Akhenaten system in its entirety, but I don't think it should be beyond the powers that be to come up with a system that adjusts at least for the relative strength of tournaments and gets us a bit closer to Akhenaten's system's objectivity without becoming so complex that it becomes impossible to follow.
Of course, even if it wouldn't be feasible to implement Akhenaten's system in full for the real rankings, it remains very valuable to us as a relatively objective way of seeing what level players are actually playing at.
-- Edited by steven on Tuesday 23rd of August 2011 11:49:41 PM
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When you look at some of Alex's results and performances there really does seem the potential to be seriously moving up te brankings. Now that can undoubtably be said of many players, I just hope Alex is one that can move up significantly.