Week 22 - Challenger - Nottingham (Great Britain) €64,000 - Grass

RJA · Hall of fame

RE: Week 22 - Challenger - Nottingham (Great Britain) €64,000 - Grass

RJA · Hall of fame

Ratty wrote:
Count Zero wrote:
it will be interesting to see if Ward can build on this next week
This is a frequent expression (*).
Would you be so kind as to allow me to challenge you to explain what you mean? Ward is probably about as good at tennis today as he was on Monday. So why should he do any better next week?
(*) Ditto "kick on"

It is us trying to kid ourselves that this is the start of a good run.

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

RJA wrote:
Ratty wrote:
Count Zero wrote:
it will be interesting to see if Ward can build on this next week
This is a frequent expression (*).
Would you be so kind as to allow me to challenge you to explain what you mean? Ward is probably about as good at tennis today as he was on Monday. So why should he do any better next week?
(*) Ditto "kick on"
It is us trying to kid ourselves that this is the start of a good run.

Nicely put, RJA, & pretty much spot-on! wink We have to have something to cling to, after all, n'est-ce pas?

Count Zero · Tennis legend

Ratty wrote:
Count Zero wrote:
it will be interesting to see if Ward can build on this next week
This is a frequent expression (*).
Would you be so kind as to allow me to challenge you to explain what you mean? Ward is probably about as good at tennis today as he was on Monday. So why should he do any better next week?
(*) Ditto "kick on"

of cousre it's an old chiche, i guess i listen to too mnay football managers :)

Yes, clearly players generally don't make technical improvments over such a short space of time, but with some much about belief things can change quickly. He got a bit of luck as i said, but he got a good win here (and 4 wins in total) and both of those things have been in short supply for him this year. He also got some points in the bag which may ease some of the worries he must be having over defending his Eastbourne points. So all in all i'd say it's been a good week for him (by the rather low standard of British Tennis)

scottie1 · Futures level

i think Ward has reached a plateau I honestly cannot see him getting above his career high in the 180's. I am waiting patiently for Oliver Golding as I am sad about the state of mens tennis in Uk apart from Andy Murray. Dan Evans has talent but sadly lets himself down and he is the only other one at moment I can see getting inside top 100. Be interested to see how Cox fares in second part of season when he has to defend all the points gained latter end of Autumn 2010. Goodall yes he should do the lottery no miss at singles as far as I am concerned reminds me of David Brewer who had lots of potential but no desire in my humble opinion.

SMC1809 · All-time great

When did Dan last let himself down? Are you still referring to the incident in Bath in March 2010, or the fact that he called himself a faggot?

I get the impression that he's tried to knuckle down and get on with his tennis this year, and has fared better than most so far. And surely it's better to berate himself than to take it out on an umpire / ballboy, and far less expletive than Muzza's outbursts.

indiana · Tennis legend

RJA wrote:
Salmon wrote:
Nadal literally stretches the rules every game with his time wasting... And the guy is one of the biggest whiners I've seen. Two year ranking system... seriously???? Mind it, the complaining is probably what makes him a better player.

And do note how Federer stopped being the saint he was when he stopped winning like before? It's very easy to be nice when everything is going your way.

And the others in the top 5 right now are Djokovic, Soderling and Murray. No comments!!

I totally stand by my point. If you're a nice guy, you won't rise to the top in tennis. That doesn't mean that if you're a meanie you'll do well, obviously. But it's a start.

I think the point that I and others have tried to make is not that we expect players to behave like saints but that abusing officials crosses the line into what is unacceptable.

Indeed. This discussion was generally about being abusive towards officials, which let's say the current top 3 players anyway generally certainly are not. Andy is abusive to many around, most particularly himself, but not officialdom. Soderling I'm not aware of having major issues, though he may well have some, I don't know. maddog's bringing up of McEnroe was bringing up an exception that certainly proves no rule. That it arguably spurred him on is no recommendation whatsoever that hey this shows great spirit and competitiveness blah blah, the sort of stuff that makes champions.

If Nadal breaks the rules re timewasting it is for officials to sort that out. If it works for him and he gets away with it, that is eeking out what you can get away as a professional sportsman. We can argue re the ethics, but I see it as quite different from being abusive towards hard pressed officials trying to do their job as best they can.

-- Edited by indiana on Thursday 2nd of June 2011 08:14:05 PM

scottie1 · Futures level

totally agree with you Murrays language is disgusting he was using same expletives as young kid in Scotland aged 15/16. It was the faggot incident i meant. Believe me I like Dan Evans I think he has talent

Ratty · County player

Here I go again, repeating myself, but, pretty please, my last post got snuffed out by Salmon's post 30 seconds later.

Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, etc CONTROL THEIR EMOTIONS. They live in the now.That's why they are at the very top of the game. Players who rant and rave tend to lose matches as a result. McEnroe was one of a kind, (probably thankfully) never to be repeated.

So not only is what Ward did unacceptable behaviour from one human to another. It is also bad for his career prospects.

DavidC · Tennis legend

Count Zero wrote:
Hard to judge vs Dimitry though, effectively at one point he was 61 51 down, possibly Dimi just let his focus slip at that point.

That's a fairly accurate assessment of what happened, though the focus was actually going before that. It was rather too easy for him up to that point, and he became rather careless in his service games, going down 0-30 a couple of times earlier in the second set and getting away with it. James hung in well but Tursonov should have converted one of the three match points he had in total at 5-2 and 5-3. Credit to James for a top class return game at 5-4, but he missed a pretty easy volley on game point at 5-5 to at least guarantee a tiebreak. It was probably irrelevant to the eventual outcome though, as I expect Tursonov would have regained his focus in the event of a third set, and he was clearly in a different class.

indiana · Tennis legend

Ratty wrote:
Here I go again, repeating myself, but, pretty please, my last post got snuffed out by Salmon's post 30 seconds later.

Nadal, Federer, Djokovic, etc CONTROL THEIR EMOTIONS. They live in the now.That's why they are at the very top of the game. Players who rant and rave tend to lose matches as a result. McEnroe was one of a kind, (probably thankfully) never to be repeated.

So not only is what Ward did unacceptable behaviour from one human to another. It is also bad for his career prospects.

Absolutely agree. Although guiltily I will admit that I did somehow quite enjoy some of McEnroes' histrionics. As I said earlier I like a bit of personality ( which can come out without being remotely abusive ), and even now I probably wouldn't hugely mind observing a bit of argy bargy with officialdom.

But that said, it IS wrong, especially wrong that officials should have to put up with personal abuse. And as for being actually at all helpful, as I said in my last post McEnroe was an exception that proves no rule.

Re generally controlling emotions, Andy is unbelievable in that he is often ranting away even when his opponent has seemingly just beaten him by very good play. Whatever, I just don't believe it is helpful, quite the opposite. To me he plays best when in full game zone not in rant zone.

-- Edited by indiana on Thursday 2nd of June 2011 08:44:02 PM

Salmon · Tennis legend

The top 5 don't insult umpires???? I guess that when you're winning, everyone speaks good things about you...

Nadal - http://www.foxsports.com.au/tennis/mens-tour/rafael-nadal-blasts-the-umpire-but-moves-into-the-semi-finals-of-the-atp-world-tour-finals-in-london/story-fn2msdm4-1225961815554

Federer - http://sports.yahoo.com/tennis/blog/busted_racquet/post/Roger-Federer-pulls-a-Serena-Williams-berates-c?urn=ten-189430

Djokovic - http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/tennis/news/story?id=6449267

Murray and Soderling - do I need to even provide anything? The good thing is that these two don't pretend to be the saints that they aren't. As a result I find them to be quite likable.

Oh... and the other Slam winners who have played on the Tour recently are, I think, JMDP (insulted his opponent's mum on court), Ferrero (I've found mentions of him "disrespecting" umpires), Roddick (Lol), Hewitt (LOL) and Safin (LOOOOOL).

Ratty, I agree with what you say, of course. But there's no reason to believe James didn't control his emotions since he went on to win the match

Salmon · Tennis legend

Is all this a good thing? Not at all. I don't condone swearing or any other breaches on court. But I also believe that the politest people don't rise to the top in tennis.

I'd much rather have a foul mouthed, whinging scrapper who does well than otherwise. Tennis is about watching people win, not suggesting a date to your niece.

-- Edited by Salmon on Friday 3rd of June 2011 01:47:22 AM

Portsey · Intermediate Club Player

Count Zero wrote:
Ratty wrote:
Count Zero wrote:
it will be interesting to see if Ward can build on this next week
This is a frequent expression (*).
Would you be so kind as to allow me to challenge you to explain what you mean? Ward is probably about as good at tennis today as he was on Monday. So why should he do any better next week?
(*) Ditto "kick on"
of cousre it's an old chiche, i guess i listen to too mnay football managers :)
Yes, clearly players generally don't make technical improvments over such a short space of time, but with some much about belief things can change quickly. He got a bit of luck as i said, but he got a good win here (and 4 wins in total) and both of those things have been in short supply for him this year. He also got some points in the bag which may ease some of the worries he must be having over defending his Eastbourne points. So all in all i'd say it's been a good week for him (by the rather low standard of British Tennis)

I think we're all referring to the effect winning has on the mentality of sportspeople; it's one thing knowing you can win and another to prove it by winning. It seems that Ward feels the pressure during matches, an inability to close out a lot of sets for example, but winning a close one this week in 2 tie-breakers against a higher ranked player means he'll be more confident he can do it again. It's all confidence, only the strongest-minded sportsmen don't suffer from pressure-related losses. However, temperament is incredibly important, it is reliant on calmness and remaining focused and needs to be concentrated on by Ward's coach. You just will not win pressure matches without a decent temperament. Forget calling yourself a fagg*t (which is a strange and worrying word to use by Evans) or berating umpires once you've lost or won.Why do it? Are you kidding yourself that you would have won had that call been different? It shows up a fault. He needs to concentrate on the next points and find a way to win them. And I'm sure the opponent loves to see it and makes them more confident knowing he is riled- better to show nothing and make your opponent think that being on the receiving end of bad calls means nothing to you because you think you'll win anyway, good calls or bad.

Portsey · Intermediate Club Player

Salmon wrote:
Is all this a good thing? Not at all. I don't condone swearing or any other breaches on court. But I also believe that the politest people don't rise to the top in tennis.

I'd much rather have a foul mouthed, whinging scrapper who does well than otherwise. Tennis is about watching people win, not suggesting a date to your niece.

-- Edited by Salmon on Friday 3rd of June 2011 01:47:22 AM

I'm with Salmon here. We're talking about trying to rise to, or being at, the top of a sport, and you have to be brilliant during matchplay, it's one on one not a team sport so there are other factors than just hitting a tennis ball and using your personality/attitude/demeanor are extremely important, otherwise you're talking about quality of service and groundstrokes and nothing more. You rise up ranking by being consistent in all areas, your attitude is one of these elements. Federer said his development into one of the great tennis players came when he changed his attitude to one of calmness, before being prone to complaints, temper tantrums etc. Nadal's attitude exudes confidence and an indomitable desire to win so even when the opponent has the upper hand they know Nadal will rarely make it easy for them, the pressure is still on. And McEnroe - didn't things work for him because he had belief that the world was against him and he needed to prove himself always? That's how it seemed to me anyway, it spurred him on and made for memorable encounters with the ice-cool confidence of Borg for example. They all have the same value and where they cross ethical lines they'll be punished.

Who remembers little Franny Lee's fight with Norman Hunter? I don't but I'm a city fan so it's part of folklore. A fight that was completely unethical within the confines of the football rules but everyone loved what happened and didn't complain about the aggression or violence involved. Why? Maybe maybe we all wanted to give Norman Hunter a smack in the chops or at least a taste of his own medicine and we saw the feisty pint-sized Franny Lee doing it for us. It's partly theatre, we like these people for some reason and they all reflect the colourful differences we have; some of us prefer the cool, unflustered players, others the tantrum-pullers, others the downbeat-looking Scottish guy who morphs into a imperious winner more often than not.

Monologue over.