Sorry this is flamin ridiculous. I assumed there was much more involved in Tara not being on the funding list, and I guess I hoped in some ways there was with Lisa, although little indication of such.
But it is clear she herself just sees it as a ranking vs age ( 19 ) issue.
I know there was some fairly involved ranking , progress, age criteria and I never did work out whether she simply failed these. I assume she did, presumably because they expect too much around the late teens / 20.
As someone suggested they could do with someone bright and sensible working on this stuff with the LTA such as Helen ? OK, I know, don't be silly
In some ways I am glad Lisa said as much as she did there although I think some of us did read a bit into her twitter "hmmm" at the time of the funding decision. Trouble is it looks a if the players are maybe in a real Catch 22 position as to how much they can say.
-- Edited by indiana on Sunday 2nd of January 2011 12:29:40 AM
The problem is that funding people of Helen (and Lisa's) age, who haven't yet reached their potential as a tennis player, is exactly what the average Daily Mail reader howls about in their general 'get a proper job' rants.
I fully agree that it needs to happen, either with direct funding or with what Helen says, a better financed GB tour series set of events, but the LTA seem to always bow to public pressure when it comes to things like this.
I'm certain Boggo was thrown off the train simply because of media pressure to do so.
That's what's also flamin maddening, the impression that so much is about PR and appeasing ( often ignorant ) media outlets, indeed seemingly playing politics with people's careers, instead of just concerning themselves with what's right.
And you know if the LTA more did what was right for the longer term instead of so much what they reckoned was better PR in the shorter term they might ultimately get better overall results, which would be in everyone's interests.
OK, that's enough flamin for now To bed.
-- Edited by indiana on Sunday 2nd of January 2011 01:56:43 AM
That's what's also flamin maddening, the impression that so much is about PR and appeasing ( often ignorant ) media outlets, indeed seemingly playing politics with people's careers, instead of just concerning themselves with what's right.
And you know if the LTA more did what was right for the longer term instead of so much what they reckoned was better PR in the shorter term they might ultimately get better overall results, which would be in everyone's interests.
Yes, couldn't agree more.
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GB on a shirt, Davis Cup still gleaming, 79 years of hurt, never stopped us dreaming ... 29/11/2015 that dream came true!
Forgive me for examining the underlying concept: Why should young tennis players expect SOMEONE ELSE to help pay for their hobby and ambition?
I think there is an analogy with the state funding the training of doctors. Yes, doctors earn a lot of money, and so should in principle pay for their own training - but there is a public good involved. Similarly, successful British tennis players generate a public good, so it follows that they should be helped to achieve their success.
(I would argue that there is a British public good in collective complaining about how useless our sports players can be, but that's another story.)
OK, so we reach an agreement that the LTA should allocate part of its budget to help individuals with the enormous cost of becoming a pro tennis player. But how should that limited amount of cash be allocated?
Let's go back to the doctor analogy again. Say I'm 16 and have always dreamed of being a top oncologist. But I just got a grade D on my GCSE in Biology. Sure I'm going to be mad as hell if my teachers tell me that 16-year olds who aren't very good at Biology are not going to be very good doctors, and so I ain't going to be able to read Medicine at Cambridge University. "What do those fools know? I'm a late developer. I really really want this so bad, etc, etc ..."
Apply this to tennis players. Yes, there are a few women who have not been outstanding at 12, 14, 16, but have later broken into the top 100 - which I suppose is a useful benchmark for a successful "investment" by the LTA.
But the problem is that most top 100 players WERE outstanding from a very young age - I think!!! It may well be that the average age of the top 100 WTA is 24 - but that is completely irrelevant. The relevant statistic for people like Tara Moore and Lisa Whybourn is what proportion of 18/19/20 year olds ranked in the 300s later went on to break the top 100.
I suspect that the answer is a very small proportion - and surely LTA funding policy should be determined by cold logic, not emotional outbursts by players with vested interests.
If someone was able to show that, well actually, in spite of anecdotal beliefs, say (i) 40% of the WTA top 100 were ranked at over 300 on their 18th birthdays, and (ii) say 25% of 20 year-olds ranked 300-500 later went on the crack the top 100 - then those would be powerful arguments towards funding the so-called late developers.
But somehow I doubt that anyone can provide statistics showing that. If in fact, as I would anecdotally suspect, only 10% of the WTA top 100 were ranked at over 300 at 18, and only 5% of 20-year olds ranked 300-500 later cracked the top 100 - then surely this is a powerful argument for the LTA NOT funding the likes of Tara Moore and Lisa Whybourn ...
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"Where Ratty leads - the rest soon follow" (Professor Henry Brubaker - The Institute of Studies)
Seeing as we're looking at LTA funding of British players, we should look at the stats of British players and those who made the top 100 in, for example, the last 10 years and see what their ranking was at age 18. Has anyone got those stats.
In that way, we'll see who needs to be supported given our own educational and sporting system, rather those around the world who work with different parameters. Also, it will be far quicker to produce these stats.
One thing that would improve funding would be to turn all $10K events into $15K events, prize money for women at the bottom rung of the ladder has not gone up for years.
I agree with both Helen and Peter too - let's reduce the amount of big-money tournies the LTA funds; spread more evenly the funding received by very young players; promote Team Tennis or integrate it into the BT so that it can become a true spectator sport worthy of sponsorship; use the money saved from big tournies to increase the number of 10ks (or better still 15ks) and increase BT prize money; allow 25ks etc to take place in school holidays when ppl are more likely to pay to watch...generally, we should promote an environment from an earlyish age where results (undisputable, empirical) determine funding, not the arbitrary whim of a selector. Then, however late you develop, you will get your just deserts eventually.
I really hope Helen isn't considered to be in breach of the Code of Conduct for receiving the Tournament Bonus by writing this (you can't go 'to the media' with any info about LTA policy without clearing it first) :s
-- Edited by jb288 on Sunday 2nd of January 2011 11:36:19 AM
I find Helen's writing to be highly interesting. She writes eloquently and obviously passionately. She obviously loves tennis and that also comes across.
It is also interesting to see the reactions that some people have to her writing and what she says. Sign of a good writer if you can stir up debate rather than simply comments of "good read" or "TL;DR"
Seeing as we're looking at LTA funding of British players, we should look at the stats of British players and those who made the top 100 in, for example, the last 10 years and see what their ranking was at age 18. Has anyone got those stats.
In that way, we'll see who needs to be supported given our own educational and sporting system, rather those around the world who work with different parameters. Also, it will be far quicker to produce these stats.
I thought I'd answer my own question. I've looked at the British players who've reached the top 100 (the LTA target) and then looked at where they were ranked at their 18th birthday (I've used the WTA site and taken the ranking from a tournament close to their 18th birthday, so may not be exactly correct).
Elena
240
Anne K
307
Katie
626
Mel
523
Sam Smith
270
Claire Wood
UNR
I then looked at some of the top 100. I didn't want to spend too much time, so I looked at the players ranked 45-54. I thought this should represent a fair cross section.
Sevastova
226
Kerber
363
Hercog
236
Dulko
159
Makarova
299
Bacsinszky
89
Date-Krumm
UNR
Vesnina
264
Arvidsson
480
Dushevina
82
Whilst the early ranking of the current top 10 suggests a higher ranking at 18 is more important, there is still hope. Stosur was ranked 266 and Schiavone 366 at age 18. (The top 10 at 18 were ranked 30, 49, 7, 4, 6, 266, 366, 145, 63, 45.)
The early rankings for those now at 91-100 were 465, 312, UNR, 169, 47, 794, 269, 90, 680, 789.
To me, this suggests that a ranking inside 300 at 18 shouldn't be a pre-requisite for a successful career and a top 100 ranking.
Thanks very much for doing the stats - very interesting.
It's obvious that the LTA use past stats to determine stuff like this (and fair enough, they make a good starting point, it's just not right to follow them slavishly, especially if you don't understand all the factors at work, how they may be changing over time and you don't take into account individual circumstances, especially when you should know those circumstances very well), but it makes you wonder what stats they are using, since to me your data appear to strongly support the case for Tara and Lisa.
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GB on a shirt, Davis Cup still gleaming, 79 years of hurt, never stopped us dreaming ... 29/11/2015 that dream came true!