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Post Info TOPIC: BOGGO? AND FINDING/FUNDING PLAYERS DISCUSSION
Ratty


County player

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RE: BOGGO? TIME TO CALL IT A DAY AND WORK IN MACD'S?
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So tedious when people are still stuck in this 1970s Guardianista/Dave Spart class warfare timewarp, which has long since been totally discredited.

IQ is a far better predictor of success in most all walks of life than social class or parental wealth - this was probably first argued in the admittedly controversial Bell Curve (by Murray & Herrnstein), and has never been refuted. Not surprisingly, because it's true.

All physiological and psychological traits are hereditary to a greater or lesser extent. So clever people tend to have clever children, athletic people tend to have athletic children. And whaddya know, guess what sort of children slovenly layabouts tend to have ...

Applying this theory to Katie O'Brien, I would argue that her school is totally irrelevant to her success in tennis. What I think is more relevant is that her parents were sufficiently determined to break the social mould by sending her to a private school, and she has inherited some of their determination.

(In Freakonomics, Steven Levitt cites a study which shows that sending one's children to a better school makes zero difference to their academic outcomes - what makes the difference is the desire to improve.)




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steven


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^^ so true

Re. the last bit, I'd be quite surprised if a better school (however you define "better", e.g. my (state) school was excellent and I doubt many private schools manage to better it) makes zero difference, but not at all surprised if it only makes a very minor difference. You need talent, obviously, but determination, hard work and the right balance of parental support (backing you as much as they can but not putting too much pressure on) are always the main key, in my opinion.

Btw I think another reason why children of sportspeople often make it in sport as well may simply be because, having done it themselves, their parents believe it is possible, see it as a viable and rewarding career option so don't discourage it but understand the sacrifices needed to make it, so don't go into it with unrealistic expectations either.



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Montana Doug


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Thanks for the kind wishes to my son....he played a top player in the section on Sat eve and went down 6-2, 6-3. The strange thing was that he had three break points for a 4-2 lead in the Second Set and played some amazing tennis. I don't think the other kid was expecting that kind of work out, so right now he is really making strides. It is expensive, but when he plays like that you just smile and wonder how good he will get as the years roll past. He only recently turned 11 and does not play nearly enough to get burned out.



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Montana Doug


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Ratty, I agree to a point, but when it comes to a sport like tennis you do need the coaching and the opportunity to play on courts. That is the tough thing when it comes to my son. When I was a kid I played footie and got lots of coaching at school and also played on a rec team too. I think I did okay with what my parents gave me, but my son has fallen in love with tennis (he is a pretty good footie player too but tennis is his fav sport). My son has played against kids who get warmed up by their coach before hand, a coach that will often watch their opponents too and will watch their matches. Most of the kids that my son plays have private lessons galore. I tell my son to keep working as he is years away from college and just to appreciate his group lessons and work there, but over here in the States, money matters a great deal and living in Kansas court time during the winter is expensive.

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Ratty


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Yes, clearly it would be insane to argue that someone can "make it" on talent alone. 

But, in my opinion, the importance for sports players of hereditary traits such as athleticism, lung capacity, determination, etc are nearly always massively underestimated. 

For example, if I ever read again those quoted ad nauseam "facts" that Andy Murray only made it because he ditched the LTA to train in Spain, and/or the LTA wrecked Jamie Murray's career when he was 12, I think I will have to heave ....

I think I've quoted this before, but I like it:

In the middle of the 1985 3,000 mile nonstop transcontinental Race Across America, I was pedalling my way across Arkansas when the ABC Wide World of Sports camera crew pulled up alongside to inquire how I felt about my third place position - way ahead of the main pack, but too far behind to catch the leaders. I answered: "I should have picked better parents."

(Michael Shermer, The Borderlands of Science)




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Ratty


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steven wrote:

^^ so true

Re. the last bit, I'd be quite surprised if a better school makes zero difference,


Levitt's piece, starting on p156 of Freakonomics, is too long to quote. But in broad terms, from 1980 Chicago allocated places in city schools by lottery. The schools with the best grades were massively oversubscribed. But the unsuccessful applicants did no worse on average than the successful ones.

The only logical conclusion is that the mere desire to move to a good school was the determining factor. Actually going to the good school made no difference (on average, of course).

Applying this to tennis training, it is a waste of time (and a waste of a great deal of money) to actually go to Bollettierri's. All you need is to WANT TO GO to Bollettierri's!!!

 



-- Edited by Ratty on Monday 3rd of January 2011 08:56:10 PM

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SMC1809


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Ratty, are you an economist or a statistician? How much of what's contained in Freakonomics do you believe, and do you like tennis, or are your posts merely part of a wider socialogical experiment?



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SMC1809


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Ratty, I'd also be interested to get your thoughts on what should be done with regard to the funding situation. If you were in charge of the LTA (I'm assuming that you're not Roger Draper in disguise), and had funds to spend to increase the number of players in the top 100, how would you go about it?

For example, would you make it purely reward based? What age group would you give support to, etc?

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Reeltime


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An idea to throw into the mix. Last year, one of the chinese girls (Zheng or Li I cant remember which) was interviewed and she said that she was a badminton plpayer up to the age of about 16, when she was told she wasnt good enough to make it to the top in that sport, why didn't she try another.

I suppose my point/question is: Is there any value in looking to "convert" sportsmen/women who arent quite good enough in their main sport? For example, football clubs turn loose hundreds of young players (16/17) every year because they aren't good enough for whatever reason. If they have good hand/eye co-ordination, and a sports background, how quickly could they be "taught" to play tennis?

I'm not saying that it would work, and we would discover a great player overnight, but nothing else seems to be working very well!

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Reeltime


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Oh, and is there a way of changing a title of a thread, because this has turned from a ridiculous dig at Boggo into a decent discussion on how to find/fund players!

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Montana Doug


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Reeltime....I find that an amazing story about Zheng or Li.....with tennis strokes I am amazed that someone could pick up the game so late, but I think you are right. Find me a good tennis player and he/she is good at baseball, soccer, hockey the list goes on and visa versa....maybe the LTA could look at those who are athletic but not quite good enough at their chosen sport, but I still think 16 is too late to pick up tennis....

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Ratty


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SMC1809 wrote:

Ratty, I'd also be interested to get your thoughts on what should be done with regard to the funding situation. If you were in charge of the LTA (I'm assuming that you're not Roger Draper in disguise), and had funds to spend to increase the number of players in the top 100, how would you go about it?

For example, would you make it purely reward based? What age group would you give support to, etc?


I am not: Roger Draper, a professional economist, a professional statistician. (Indiana is a statistician, I believe, and has more than once pointed out errors in my reasoning ...)

I do like tennis.

I have nothing original to offer in terms of making British tennis players better.

Although picking up on Reeltime's last couple of posts, I did once suggest that all the other British top 100 male tennis players are in the England cricket team, if you see what i mean ...


-- Edited by Ratty on Tuesday 4th of January 2011 06:49:09 AM

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Madeline


Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

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RE: BOGGO? AND FINDING/FUNDING PLAYERS DISCUSSION
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Reeltime wrote:

Oh, and is there a way of changing a title of a thread, because this has turned from a ridiculous dig at Boggo into a decent discussion on how to find/fund players!


It happens all the time laughing.gif

Changed.

 



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Montana Doug


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Look at that Madeline.....now you changed the title of the thread the thread dies.....prob coz too many would rather take ridiculous digs at Boggo than have a decent discussion....lol

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steven


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The Bogster gets some credit in the Daily Mail today ... well, sort of: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-1344164/Wimbledon-marathon-man-Nicolas-Mahut-ready-push-Andy-Murray-limits-Hopman-Cup.html

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