2011 Team AEGON players announced

Count Zero · Tennis legend

RE: 2011 Team AEGON players announced

cinderella · Newbie

1st time posting.

Never mind LTA raising the bar for the players (like Tara, Lisa, Katie etc.), how about raising the bar for the NTC coaches who continue getting pay rises and bonuses but delivering nothing or worse failing players?

In football, if the team does not do well, the manager gets the sack, oh no, not at the LTA!!! Players get kicked out but never the coaches, best jobs around.

How many highly paid coaches are now working at the HQ looking after so few players and they have failed so many of those promising players and continue failing even more young and upcoming players?

Bally, Robson and Watson are doing well thanks to the non involvement of the NTC coaches. So are Tara, Lisa etc.

indiana · Tennis legend

LordBrownof wrote:

To be perfectly honest, I would think even more ill of the LTA had Tara's tweets have played any part in the selection process.

If the LTA were to reduce, or in this case scrap, funding from a player who sought (quite rightly in my view) to make a criticism, then balls to them. I'm all for discipline, but the arrogance of that would be astonishing.

That said, I'd be surprised if that was the reason. However I can't see another reason for Tara's omission other than perhaps a personal grudge via the head of women's tennis. (Who is?)

As for Lisa, I can't imagine what she must feel she needs to do to get the funding - ranking- check, age- check, results - check, work ethic - check.

Though I agree re any reasonable criticisms on twitter, as I indicated I hardly even think Tara has particularly criticised in as much as I had seen was a comment to yourself re funding decision delay causing her to miss the recent Indian tournament and has tweeted ( remarkably ) diplomatically re the funding decision outcome :

"Did not get included in LTA Team Aegon selection despite solid year, guess I didnt tick enough boxes? Next year maybe!?!"

Actually one of the more pointed / petty funding comments came from Naomi Broady in Glasgow in October :

"Interesting how the last 3 brits left in the singles all aren't receiving LTA funding"

At least the Broadys turned the funding down before a not dissimilar comment could be made about current happenings in Dubai !

-- Edited by indiana on Monday 13th of December 2010 04:43:47 AM

Ratty · County player

cinderella wrote:
1st time posting.
Never mind LTA raising the bar for the players (like Tara, Lisa, Katie etc.), how about raising the bar for the NTC coaches who continue getting pay rises and bonuses but delivering nothing or worse failing players?
In football, if the team does not do well, the manager gets the sack, oh no, not at the LTA!!! Players get kicked out but never the coaches, best jobs around.
How many highly paid coaches are now working at the HQ looking after so few players and they have failed so many of those promising players and continue failing even more young and upcoming players?
Bally, Robson and Watson are doing well thanks to the non involvement of the NTC coaches. So are Tara, Lisa etc.

I am not burning any candles for the LTA, but ...

1. The short-termism of the many football club owners who sack "failing" managers is generally regarded as a disgrace which is seriously damaging to the game and the clubs. As has been said many times, if all 20 of the Premier League clubs had Alex Ferguson as manager, 3 of them would still get relegated.

2. The LTA have employed an awful lot of "top" international coaches over the last few years. Are you saying that all of them suddenly become useless as soon as they sign their contracts? It seems a bit unlikely.

3. The last bit of your post is just the usual cherry-picking of evidence, and confusion of correlation with causation, unfortunately so prevalent on this board when people have axes to grind. You have conveniently ignored the fact that the only 3 British women players to crack the top 100 in the last 2-3 years have all been significantly supported by the LTA and based to a large extent at the NTC.

A recent quote from Bally:

So much has gone into it, so much hard work, so many tears, and really Ive got to thank my team that has worked with me because there is no way that I would be sitting at top 50 right now without my coach Nino Severino and all the people that he has brought in to help me, and of course the LTA as well because we do get great support from everyone at the NTC.

-- Edited by Ratty on Monday 13th of December 2010 06:54:50 AM

indiana · Tennis legend

cinderella wrote:

1st time posting.
Never mind LTA raising the bar for the players (like Tara, Lisa, Katie etc.), how about raising the bar for the NTC coaches who continue getting pay rises and bonuses but delivering nothing or worse failing players?
In football, if the team does not do well, the manager gets the sack, oh no, not at the LTA!!! Players get kicked out but never the coaches, best jobs around.
How many highly paid coaches are now working at the HQ looking after so few players and they have failed so many of those promising players and continue failing even more young and upcoming players?
Bally, Robson and Watson are doing well thanks to the non involvement of the NTC coaches. So are Tara, Lisa etc.

Welcome to the forum, Cinderella, nice to see new members and posters.   I am afraid though in this instance I must to a quite a large extent agree with Ratty here.

In my view, your football analogy is not good. He is quite right that too many managers and some coaches in football get the bullet far too soon. Just in the last few weeks in England the manager Chris Hughton at Newcastle and coach Ray Wilkins at Chelses have gone for unfathomable reasons, certainly not seemingly linked to any rational analysis of the results or ambience levels within the teams.

That said, some might think there may be a better analogy with the folk above them, i.e. the owners Ashley at Newcastle and Abramovich at Chelsea are like various other owners in at times being seen to be making decisions that effect the playing side without any real knowledge of what is best there.  Could comparisons be made with the overseeers at the LTA ?

Personally I have no real knowledge of how Roger Draper and co interact with and how their decisions effect the way the coaches operate and hence how the performance of the players improve or not. But I can't help wondering whether the area of concern is much more at the top of the LTA.

Re the issue of this specific thread do the LTA top folk for instance take too much responsibilty in setting the criteria and / or making the final decisions as to who to concentrate funding on as opposed to seeking more input from the coaches and other folk more expert in pure tennis matters ?  That would maybe in a way, stretching the analogy, like the owners deciding who should be in a football team, perhaps say maybe getting the manager to leave out individuals for reasons unconnected to ability to produce the best for the team.

-- Edited by indiana on Monday 13th of December 2010 07:59:39 AM

SMC1809 · All-time great

Ratty wrote:

cinderella wrote:
1st time posting.
Never mind LTA raising the bar for the players (like Tara, Lisa, Katie etc.), how about raising the bar for the NTC coaches who continue getting pay rises and bonuses but delivering nothing or worse failing players?
In football, if the team does not do well, the manager gets the sack, oh no, not at the LTA!!! Players get kicked out but never the coaches, best jobs around.
How many highly paid coaches are now working at the HQ looking after so few players and they have failed so many of those promising players and continue failing even more young and upcoming players?
Bally, Robson and Watson are doing well thanks to the non involvement of the NTC coaches. So are Tara, Lisa etc.

I am not burning any candles for the LTA, but ...

1. The short-termism of the many football club owners who sack "failing" managers is generally regarded as a disgrace which is seriously damaging to the game and the clubs. As has been said many times, if all 20 of the Premier League clubs had Alex Ferguson as manager, 3 of them would still get relegated.

2. The LTA have employed an awful lot of "top" international coaches over the last few years. Are you saying that all of them suddenly become useless as soon as they sign their contracts? It seems a bit unlikely.

3. The last bit of your post is just the usual cherry-picking of evidence, and confusion of correlation with causation, unfortunately so prevalent on this board when people have axes to grind. You have conveniently ignored the fact that the only 3 British women players to crack the top 100 in the last 2-3 years have all been significantly supported by the LTA and based to a large extent at the NTC.

A recent quote from Bally:

So much has gone into it, so much hard work, so many tears, and really Ive got to thank my team that has worked with me because there is no way that I would be sitting at top 50 right now without my coach Nino Severino and all the people that he has brought in to help me, and of course the LTA as well because we do get great support from everyone at the NTC.

-- Edited by Ratty on Monday 13th of December 2010 06:54:50 AM

I may be reading too much into Ratty's post, but I think what he/she is trying to say is

1) Welcome to the forum, your opinions are always valued.

2) As they are your opinions, they can never be wrong.

3) Only established members are allowed to cherry-pick the information on which to comment

4) Ignore any rants or attacks brought on by boredom following the Mensa website crash.

-- Edited by SMC1809 on Monday 13th of December 2010 09:17:29 AM

cinderella · Newbie

Ratty wrote:

cinderella wrote:
1st time posting.
Never mind LTA raising the bar for the players (like Tara, Lisa, Katie etc.), how about raising the bar for the NTC coaches who continue getting pay rises and bonuses but delivering nothing or worse failing players?
In football, if the team does not do well, the manager gets the sack, oh no, not at the LTA!!! Players get kicked out but never the coaches, best jobs around.
How many highly paid coaches are now working at the HQ looking after so few players and they have failed so many of those promising players and continue failing even more young and upcoming players?
Bally, Robson and Watson are doing well thanks to the non involvement of the NTC coaches. So are Tara, Lisa etc.

I am not burning any candles for the LTA, but ...

1. The short-termism of the many football club owners who sack "failing" managers is generally regarded as a disgrace which is seriously damaging to the game and the clubs. As has been said many times, if all 20 of the Premier League clubs had Alex Ferguson as manager, 3 of them would still get relegated.

2. The LTA have employed an awful lot of "top" international coaches over the last few years. Are you saying that all of them suddenly become useless as soon as they sign their contracts? It seems a bit unlikely.

3. The last bit of your post is just the usual cherry-picking of evidence, and confusion of correlation with causation, unfortunately so prevalent on this board when people have axes to grind. You have conveniently ignored the fact that the only 3 British women players to crack the top 100 in the last 2-3 years have all been significantly supported by the LTA and based to a large extent at the NTC.

A recent quote from Bally:

So much has gone into it, so much hard work, so many tears, and really Ive got to thank my team that has worked with me because there is no way that I would be sitting at top 50 right now without my coach Nino Severino and all the people that he has brought in to help me, and of course the LTA as well because we do get great support from everyone at the NTC.

-- Edited by Ratty on Monday 13th of December 2010 06:54:50 AM

Your are ignoring the fact that the female players who are doing well have no much to do with the Head of Women's tennis and his team at the NTC. What players say in public could be totally different to what they say in private. Bally's success is down to Nino and herself, Watson and Robson their families and foreign coaches. They may use the facilities at the NTC sometimes but they do not want the involvement of NTC coaches, Fact.

The successes of the above three cannot cover the failures of the NTC coaches who in football would have been sacked long since. You may find Premier League too harsh but managers like Alex Ferguson do survive because they are good and that is why the premier League is the best in the world.

Your point 3, Who are the top international coaches in the women's team? Not many. What have the current coaches (who have been there forever) achieved, playing wise or coaching wise?

The regime in the women's department I am afraid is corrupt.

scallywag · Social player

cinderella wrote:

Ratty wrote:

cinderella wrote:
1st time posting.
Never mind LTA raising the bar for the players (like Tara, Lisa, Katie etc.), how about raising the bar for the NTC coaches who continue getting pay rises and bonuses but delivering nothing or worse failing players?
In football, if the team does not do well, the manager gets the sack, oh no, not at the LTA!!! Players get kicked out but never the coaches, best jobs around.
How many highly paid coaches are now working at the HQ looking after so few players and they have failed so many of those promising players and continue failing even more young and upcoming players?
Bally, Robson and Watson are doing well thanks to the non involvement of the NTC coaches. So are Tara, Lisa etc.

I am not burning any candles for the LTA, but ...

1. The short-termism of the many football club owners who sack "failing" managers is generally regarded as a disgrace which is seriously damaging to the game and the clubs. As has been said many times, if all 20 of the Premier League clubs had Alex Ferguson as manager, 3 of them would still get relegated.

2. The LTA have employed an awful lot of "top" international coaches over the last few years. Are you saying that all of them suddenly become useless as soon as they sign their contracts? It seems a bit unlikely.

3. The last bit of your post is just the usual cherry-picking of evidence, and confusion of correlation with causation, unfortunately so prevalent on this board when people have axes to grind. You have conveniently ignored the fact that the only 3 British women players to crack the top 100 in the last 2-3 years have all been significantly supported by the LTA and based to a large extent at the NTC.

A recent quote from Bally:

So much has gone into it, so much hard work, so many tears, and really Ive got to thank my team that has worked with me because there is no way that I would be sitting at top 50 right now without my coach Nino Severino and all the people that he has brought in to help me, and of course the LTA as well because we do get great support from everyone at the NTC.

-- Edited by Ratty on Monday 13th of December 2010 06:54:50 AM

Your are ignoring the fact that the female players who are doing well have no much to do with the Head of Women's tennis and his team at the NTC. What players say in public could be totally different to what they say in private. Bally's success is down to Nino and herself, Watson and Robson their families and foreign coaches. They may use the facilities at the NTC sometimes but they do not want the involvement of NTC coaches, Fact.
The successes of the above three cannot cover the failures of the NTC coaches who in football would have been sacked long since. You may find Premier League too harsh but managers like Alex Ferguson do survive because they are good and that is why the premier League is the best in the world.
Your point 3, Who are the top international coaches in the women's team? Not many. What have the current coaches (who have been there forever) achieved, playing wise or coaching wise?
The regime in the women's department I am afraid is corrupt.

Ratty, IMH opinion, Bally felt obliged to quote LTA's support in terms of providing funding etc...However, totally agree with Ciderella, LTA coaches involvement tenniswise in taking Bally to her current level is next to nothing, and it doesn't take a genues to figure it out.

Generation after generation good crops who have been sucked onto LTA convoyer belt, failed and finished with tears and regrets, and the lesson learned from the failing by the system can only be for next generations, if they and thier parents are wise enough not to follow the same step... Seen it, been there and done it in my generation, and sad to see it continues...

Can anyone advise who the current NTC based coaches are for boys and girls?

Ratty · County player

yes, yes, welcome to the board, etc, etc ...

How important is a particular coach to a player's success? Would Andy Murray be world no 4 if he had NOT trained in Spain for 6 months when he was 15? I suspect that the answer is (1) not particularly, and (2) yes.

I suspect (and of course I may be wrong) that the main constituents of player success are genes and luck. Would Andy Murray be world No 4 if he was 5'6"? Or if he had the massive physique of Andrew Sheridan? Or if he did not have a single-minded and determined personality? Or if he (whatever "he" is) had been born in China? I suspect that the answer to all of these questions is no.

And (getting a bit random here, sorry) remember Nicola Roberts, the "slightly less good-looking" one in Girls Aloud. The band was formed in 2002 by public votes on "Popstars: The Rivals" a prototype for the X Factor. 10 contestants were initially chosen by the judges. Roberts did not make the cut - she was brought in as a replacement when 2 of the original 10 pulled out. The rest is history.

scallywag · Social player

Agree and not agree regarding Andy. If he stayed in UK at crucial stages going through the same system as his brother, he would not have made it!!!

Don't get me wrong Jamie is still a good player, but according to insiders, his was at least as talented as Andy if not more talented when he was a teenager but the system failed him, even Andy Murray himself publically criticised LTA for failing his brother a few years back; Judy was wise enough to send Andy to Spain after seeing her elder son make "huge" progress!!!

Ratty · County player

scallywag wrote:

Don't get me wrong Jamie is still a good player, but according to insiders, his was at least as talented as Andy if not more talented when he was a teenager but the system failed him, even Andy Murray himself publically criticised LTA for failing his brother a few years back; Judy was wise enough to send Andy to Spain after seeing her elder son make "huge" progress!!!

Oh yes, of course I forgot, when any promising British player fails to be successful, it's never that they lost their mojo, got bored, got into girls, got injured, didn't grow enough, grew too much, etc, etc .......... oh no, it's always the LTA's fault.

And I don't know what "insiders" you've been listening to, but there's no way that Jamie was ever as talented a youngster as Andy. In 1999 Andy won the 14&U Nationals at the age of 12, and in 2001 he was ETA 14&U No 2 (Djokovic was No 1), among other achievements. Jamie never achieved anything remotely as good.

Plus of course, one could just as easily spin Jamie as a great LTA success story - he is after all a Grand Slam champion.

steven · Tennis legend

I would add to what Ratty said that it's very obvious (to me, at least! wink

) that however talented Jamie may have been relative to Andy, he hasn't got the same single-minded determination as his brother. Some would say that makes him nicer, a more rounded personality or whatever, but the fact remains that Andy clearly has much more of a killer instinct than his brother.

I would also hazard a guess that the young Andy as a youngster wouldn't have been 'broken' by any coaching setup, however bad.

scallywag · Social player

Ummmmmm, I wonder why Andy Murray criticised LTA for ruin his brother then

steven · Tennis legend

scallywag wrote:

Ummmmmm, I wonder why Andy Murray criticised LTA for ruin his brother then

Even if he knows he wouldn't have been 'broken' by them himself, it doesn't necessarily stop him thinking his brother was 'broken' by them.

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

Yes, I think you have to factor in that Andy (despite being the younger) is fiercely protective of his brother who is fairly obviously not so strong a character - and that fact alone makes me feel Jamie would never have got far.