The Times and other media

Ratty · County player

RE: The Times and other media

steven · Tennis legend

Ratty wrote:
Oh yawn ...

Extrapolating from someone's supposed attitude at some no-mark waste-of-time father-&-son type tournie in Zurich, that he isn't hungry enough to succeed, strikes me as completely absurd. Did Liam forget to cut the crusts off your cucumber sandwiches, Tim, or pour the milk in the cup before the tea?

I would say that predicting which promising juniors will be successful at the senior level is well nigh impossible.

For example, who would have predicted Raonic's recent meteoric rise - his CH as a junior was 35 (I see that he lost to Neil Pauffley at Roehampton in 2008)?

And what about Donald Young - the youngest ever year end junior No 1 in 2005, but who has struggled to make an impact at senior level (until last week, LOL!!!) All the pundits were predicting great things for him, but it just hasn't happened.

To some extent, that's the point Tim's making though, isn't it? - that it's not just the ability you show as a junior that counts, it's the attitude you have and the work you put in during and after your transition to the seniors.

Having said that, I do often get the impression (maybe unfairly) that he's not that interested in the up-and-coming GB players and is inclined to just parrot the media line, and I agree with you about the Zurich tournament - I'd much rather Liam showed his hunger for success by (just to take a random wink

example) grinding out 5 wins in as many days on clay just to get another ATP point than by winning an exhibition doubles set - indeed, Oli more or less implied that Sampras couldn't care less in their match, and that was hardly a surprise.

Oli has tweeted (to Ashley Hewitt, who said "@oli_golding just read a nice article on you and broady in the daily mail a must read!") LOL:

"@hewitt_92 its great isn't it ... I accept what henman wrote .. Fair enough the guy was 4 in the world, but the other guy hasn't got a clue"

I'm not quite sure what he means by "the other guy", since Dicko reports what Tim said without much comment of his own, but Oli may have seen the story somewhere else - the same interview has been reported elsewhere with the odd embellishment.

Or maybe he objects to "earlier this month, Henman got a close look at them" (i.e. did Tim actually bother to watch any of the junior matches that avidly?) or the implication in "Golding ..., who is living in Mexico to be near his girlfriend" that this is the only reason and he is sacrificing his training to do that.

In the latter case, my view is that if he has sorted out the move to Mexico in a professional way so that he is getting coaching as good as he could get at home (and comparing the progress of those who have been coached in Spain relative to those who have stayed in the UK, getting coached in the UK hardly looks like the most guaranteed route to success, at least for British male players!) and he is putting the work in, then good luck to him. You could even argue too that there is plenty of evidence at the top of the game that those ready to make a serious commitment to a relationship (whether it ends up lasting or not) seem to do better at fulfilling their tennis-playing potential than those who don't.

philwrig · Hall of fame

Tim isn't usually this vocal in the press, and it does worry me immensely that our top prospects are not showing the dedication to maximise their huge talents. I remember Mourotoglou talking about Laura's progression to becoming a top player in the future, he was making quite a big deal out of the need for her to become even more dedicated off the court basically using every hour in the day to becoming the best tennis player you can possibly be.
Ensure that you have the same level of intensity off the match court, because if you do it becomes second nature when you play in the future. Now Laura has generally been applauded for her work ethic, so I think if one of the top coaches is saying this it must have some validity. Take Andy for example, in his progression to becoming a top 5 player it was often commented that he almost had an obsession with regards to what lengths he would go to to maximise his talents, take for example his efforts to become fitter.
I remarked at the time when Oli chose to live in Mexico to be with his girlfriend and said that I was disappointed. Greg had just started to make some real progress with his coaching at that time.
Obviously we don't know the full picture but first and foremost you must want success desperately and for it to be the main focal point in your life for you to have the best chance of achieving it.

steven · Tennis legend

I agree that Tim isn't in the press all the time talking about this but he does pop up every time Wimbledon comes around with his "they're not as dedicated as I used to be" rant.

He may be right - indeed, he's almost certainly right in many cases, since I hugely admire the lengths he went to in order to make the most of his talents, but when he starts reinforcing the myth that the lower level Brits have it easy as if they're all receiving full funding, when we all know that it's a struggle at Futures/Challenger level (even if you are funded, I imagine, but especially if you're not and don't have well-off parents who can help out), it feels like he's just parroting the media line without knowing that much about what's actually going on.

Everything you say about wanting success desperately and it being the main focal point in your life is true, but different players go about it in different ways and you can't shut the rest of your life out completely, even if you want to.

Also, while there are no doubts about how hard Andy trains now, I seem to remember that it was only a few years ago that he was saying how much he hated the gym and preferred to do most of his training on court. That attitude changed completely, but only when he was a fair bit older than Oli and Liam are now.

All I'm really trying to argue is that if Tim has genuine concerns, he should talk to the players about it in a constructive way (of course, he may have done that as well) instead of complaining to the media about them ... plus that even if their attitude isn't perfect right now, I don't get the impression that the attitude of those two is that bad compared with some (ok, what do I know ...) and there's still time for them to mature and for that attitude to develop.

philwrig · Hall of fame

Yes I agree you do need some balance to your life, but choosing to live in Mexico to be with your girlfriend at a time when he was making good progress with the help of Greg was IMO a poor decision. Why can't his girlfriend come over and live in London for example.
Still plenty of time for Oli to get his fitness sorted out, but my confidence in him becoming a top pro has diminished somewhat recently.
Yes pro tennis can be a tough life financially etc., but this handful of top juniors we currently have are so talented that it would be criminal if these talents were wasted.
Yes certainly Andy became much more of a fitness fanatic later on in his tennis development, but when he did he became obsessive about it.
I also agree that Tim should have had a quiet word with the two instead of saying this in the press. I also wish that he would get directly involved with coaching some of our top juniors.
Hopefully though this will provide a wakeup call for the two and not to be taken too negatively.

Reeltime · Satellite level

Wasnt there a certain young tennis player kicked out of Wimbledon for smashing a ball at a ball girl? Not a great attitude

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

philwrig wrote:

Yes I agree you do need some balance to your life, but choosing to live in Mexico to be with your girlfriend at a time when he was making good progress with the help of Greg was IMO a poor decision. Why can't his girlfriend come over and live in London for example.

Maybe he just couldn't stand much more of Greg's non-stop talking?

I remember when Andy first burst onto the scene as far as the general public was concerned, there were comments that he was known at his Spanish training centre as "lazy English" (A double insult there? wink

) So there is still hope for some of these young ones.

indiana · Tennis legend

philwrig wrote:

Yes I agree you do need some balance to your life, but choosing to live in Mexico to be with your girlfriend at a time when he was making good progress with the help of Greg was IMO a poor decision. Why can't his girlfriend come over and live in London for example.

Err, why on earth should his girlfriend come over to London any more than Oli should go to Mexico ? His girlfriend is Carolina Betancourt, women professional tennis player, WR 778 ( higher than Oli is ranked ), with her own family and career to consider, not just some female feudal attachment disbelief They may in some way end up dividing time between Mexico and the UK anyway, as tournaments take a more decidedly European swing, I don't know.

We, wanting the best out of British tennis players, may or may not think this move is good for Oli, and different points have been made above. But there are other folk's interests too to consider, not least Carolina's. Apart from some sort of rationale being presented that it is just better somehow for them both to be in the UK rather than Mexico ( and there are also undoubtably some other circumstances that we just don't know ) then I just don't see why one would think she should just move to the UK.

-- Edited by indiana on Tuesday 22nd of March 2011 10:23:44 PM

philwrig · Hall of fame

I only mentioned it as a possibilty the London thing.
Anyways I suppose Oli can do anything he wants its his own life.

indiana · Tennis legend

Make no mistakes, I do want to see Oli conduct his career in as professional a way as possible and be all he can be. And I would be very disappointed to see Oli doing "anything he wants" directly tennis related and his career suffering, and no doubt folk would comment on here about such tennis aspects.

But love is a separate issue that comes along and we all deal and react differently to it.

I was just pointing out that they were two professional tennis players who wanted to be together and I didn't see any obvious more reason why, for them both, they should be in the UK rather than Mexico.

CourtCrazy · Social player

Aside from Henman making this pretty general, standard comment, has there ever been any suggestion from anyone, or indeed any evidence whatsoever to suggest that Liam Broady has got anything than a truly outstanding attitude? Just because Henman says these things does not mean they are true! I can't speak about Golding as I don't know him at all, but what I know of Liam is that his attitude is fantastic and his work ethic excellent, and any suggestion to the contrary needs to be nipped in the bud ASAP. I think his results clearly back this up as well.

I don't mean to say that Henman doesn't make some valid points about some British players, but he more than anyone should be aware of saying that players aren't 'hungry' enough - it was said enough about him, and it was nonsense back then as well!

indiana · Tennis legend

Cheers, CourtCrazy, those do seem sound words. And indeed Liam's abilities to "grind out" ( but obviously with some quality ) results and ranking points speak very well of him.

It reminded me that you spoke very well of Liam at the end of November when we had a thread and poll as to who might turn out the most successful in the senior ranks from Morgan, Golding, Broady, Edmund and Bambridge.

At that particuklar time, Liam was far from the most popular pick, but you said :

CourtCrazy wrote:

Just thought I'd give my views on this as I've seen quite a bit of all these players over the years.

In my view, unless something goes horribly wrong, Liam Broady will end the highest ranked by some distance. He is top 20, maybe even top 10 material all the way. Everything he does is quality, and his head is screwed on the right way.

Who knows for sure how things will ultimately work out, but for now these seem to me to be much wiser words than Mr Henman's. It does seem most unfair how he has seemingly on very little evidence just lumped Liam into these ongoing points that he seems to wish to make about the younger British players.

CourtCrazy · Social player

I do think Golding has some tremendous qualities as well, but what concerns me most about him is similar to those of others - whether he will make the correct choices with regards to his guidance on his game. (Think of how Amir Khan turned his boxing career round by hiring the technical expertise of Freddie Roach). I think WHERE he trains is largely an irrelivence, it is WHO he works with that is most important, as he still has a lot to learn about how the game is played. I don't think an academy with just hours of repeated drilling is the right direction for him, he would be better off hiring a coach to work one on one with him for a set period (and I'm not just talking about an ex player as is usually the case, I mean a proper coach).

Again though, I wish people in Henman's position would offer opinions on things like this to these players rather than hyperbole using words like 'hunger', 'passion' and 'fight'. This kind of talk doesn't mean anything and that way they are never proven wrong - if the players produce in the end, the experts will just say 'they got the hunger I told them about', and if they don't produce they can say 'I told you so', and there is no way of proving anything to the contrary!

indiana · Tennis legend

The more I think it the more out of order I think Henman was with :

He also questioned Broady, a highly rated 17-year-old from Stockport. 'I played doubles with him and wanted to see more intensity. I compare it to how desperately I wanted to succeed. There was a Czech kid playing there (Australian Open winner Jiri Vesely). He's OK but when you looked at his mentality, you could see in his eyes he would do anything to win.'

Henman is a guy folk will listen to and take notice of and he abuses that position with such comments re Broady in what as Ratty would say is absically a no-mark fathers and sons tiurrnament whatever the names, and in which some seniors were not unexpectedly not giving it their all.

All other evidence is to the contary of this "looke into eyes" in an exhibition crap, and he shoiuld really consider his words much more carefully.

steven · Tennis legend

I've been thinking about that too, especially after CourtCrazy's comments, and I hope you don't mind me giving your tweet on the subject a wider airing, as it were, and adding a comment of my own.