Davis Cup - World Group Playoff - GBR v Austria - 19-21 September 2008

RJA · Hall of fame

RE: Davis Cup - World Group Playoff - GBR v Austria - 19-21 September 2008

DJ · County player

RJA wrote:

Drew wrote:

I wonder how Ross would feel if he were asked "Do you feel slightly lucky to be here ahead of the likes of Josh Goodall ?"

I dont think we can be under any illusion that the team is what it is becuse of 'Andy's preferences'.

The argument is wether that is right or not....where the hell is that fence ?

A tough question but what I will say is that if Andy wants to pick the team then he bloody well should be available for every tie unless he is genuinely injured.

How on earth is this strange assumption that Andy is picking the team (or even having undue influence on the selections) gaining ground? Leaving aside, for the moment, the question of whether or not Josh has antagonised his peers, let us focus simply on selection of the best players.

Singles: Andy, of course, is a banker. Who's our second best player at the moment, i.e. over the last two or three months? Only Josh's mum could possibly believe that Josh is better than Alex at the moment! What about Alex's temperament? That's clearly improved this season - choking, whilst not eradicated, is hugely less than before. Josh isn't immune to choking, either, has no experience at such a high level, and hasn't really indicated that he's going to get there; moreover, the only time I saw him play live, against a much inferior player, he self-destructed, embarrassingly - I'd hate to see that happen when representing his country. (I very much hope I'm wrong about this; little would give me more pleasure than swallowing my words on seeing Josh fly!)

Doubles: Look at the rankings - Jamie's clearly our best, Ross our number two. We have three possible pairings, A+J, A+R, J+R. To my mind, resting Andy, to ensure he wins both singles, is probably the best option - J+R, I think, would work well. Should Josh be in before Ross? Surely not - Josh has definite doubles potential, but he rarely plays doubles above Futures level, and that's not appropriate for a Davis Cup tie.

The sole argument, in my view, for choosing Josh would be in case of injury to Andy or Alex but, in that case, his selection should be in addition to Ross, not in his stead. To return to the original question - why on earth is Andy being tarred as the villain in this piece, when logic suggests (to me, anyway!) that the team is the best 4-man team available to us; the only question is whether we should have a 5-man team instead.

ForeverDelayed · Grand Slam Champion

DJ wrote:

RJA wrote:

Drew wrote:

I wonder how Ross would feel if he were asked "Do you feel slightly lucky to be here ahead of the likes of Josh Goodall ?"

I dont think we can be under any illusion that the team is what it is becuse of 'Andy's preferences'.

The argument is wether that is right or not....where the hell is that fence ?

A tough question but what I will say is that if Andy wants to pick the team then he bloody well should be available for every tie unless he is genuinely injured.

How on earth is this strange assumption that Andy is picking the team (or even having undue influence on the selections) gaining ground? Leaving aside, for the moment, the question of whether or not Josh has antagonised his peers, let us focus simply on selection of the best players.

Singles: Andy, of course, is a banker. Who's our second best player at the moment, i.e. over the last two or three months? Only Josh's mum could possibly believe that Josh is better than Alex at the moment! What about Alex's temperament? That's clearly improved this season - choking, whilst not eradicated, is hugely less than before. Josh isn't immune to choking, either, has no experience at such a high level, and hasn't really indicated that he's going to get there; moreover, the only time I saw him play live, against a much inferior player, he self-destructed, embarrassingly - I'd hate to see that happen when representing his country. (I very much hope I'm wrong about this; little would give me more pleasure than swallowing my words on seeing Josh fly!)

Doubles: Look at the rankings - Jamie's clearly our best, Ross our number two. We have three possible pairings, A+J, A+R, J+R. To my mind, resting Andy, to ensure he wins both singles, is probably the best option - J+R, I think, would work well. Should Josh be in before Ross? Surely not - Josh has definite doubles potential, but he rarely plays doubles above Futures level, and that's not appropriate for a Davis Cup tie.

The sole argument, in my view, for choosing Josh would be in case of injury to Andy or Alex but, in that case, his selection should be in addition to Ross, not in his stead. To return to the original question - why on earth is Andy being tarred as the villain in this piece, when logic suggests (to me, anyway!) that the team is the best 4-man team available to us; the only question is whether we should have a 5-man team instead.

The reason I think Josh probably should be part of the squad is that going in with 2 doubles specialists, who don't play together, nor do they play singles if a very risky move.

As both Ross and Jamie have been selected, the assumption is that they should play the doubles rubber together, as if not, then whoever doesn't play the doubles rubber shouldn't be in the team.

If Andy does play doubles, which I think is the best way to win the tie, then he can only play with either Jamie or Ross, so one of them shouldn't be in the eventual 4 man team, and seeing as Andy has played with both of them, he should know who he works best with.

Yeah, Ross and Jamie could play the doubles rubber together, but it is a guarentee that they'd beat Melzer and Knowle (and would be the underdogs), so it's a risk.

Josh might not be as good a doubles player as either of them, but could well play the doubles rubber, as he and Ross have reached an ATP final together (and that was a year ago, and both are better players since then), so would be a capable doubles team.

And Josh could also cover a singles rubber much better than either Jamie/Ross could in case of injury or either Boggo/Andy having such a bad time that it wouldn't be wise to play them in another singles match.

If Jamie/Ross doubles team does work, then it's a great move, but it's a huge risk to only go in with 2 singles players considering Boggo's past performances in Davis Cup (and as the tie is likely to come down to Boggo/Peya unless we win the doubles), or an injury, as we're basically screwed then.

RJA · Hall of fame

I also feel that there shouldn't be any reason why Andy can't play in the doubles. He will have at least 11 days off after the US open and won't play an event the week after the Davis Cup so while playing 3 five set ties in as many days is tough it should certainly not be a too unreasonable ask now that he has sorted his fitness out.

scottie1 · Futures level

I think that we are in danger of losing.I think bogga will lose against Melzer. The doubles well Knowle and Melzer are really good. Andy will beat peya probaly beat melzer. Will Bogga choke once more against peya???????? Watch this space. I think Josh should be in squad. I thought it could only be a 4 man team in Davis Cup or could someone correct me on that?. I know where DJ is coming from saying best 4 available but if Baker was fit and healthy would the team still have 2 doubles players or would bogga be dropped?

Count Zero · Tennis legend

well the last team (vs the argies) would have been andy, alex, Jamie B and jamie M. perhaps he would have gone the same with ross around as a back up.

Count Zero · Tennis legend

Austrian team:
Jürgen Melzer
Julian Knowle
Alexander Peya
Martin Fischer
Captain: Gilbert Schaller

imoen · Admin: Moderator+Tennis Legend

In terms of Andy being claimed to have chosen the team, i think it's more the Murray family that are under suspicion than Andy alone. And that fact does perhaps have some merit, I mean Jamie Murray whilst undoubtedly a good doubles player hasn't really set the world on fire the last few months, indeed he went out two rounds before Ross in the US open. So, when picking a team that would usually involve two main singles players, one doubles guy and a spare who can do both. Based on the past few months, I'd say Hutchins deserves to be the doubles guy more than Jamie. That has left the question of the fourth member...Lloyd has chosen to put Jamie Murray in that spot, leaving us with two players completely unranked in the singles and frankly with no chance at all if there are any injury problems for our two singles players. That, in my eyes is where the contraversy lies, because looking at it that way, it would appear that the Murray brothers both have garunteed places in the DC team, regardless of their current form.

No surprises in that Austrain team, I think it'll be a close contest. I'm heading over on day1 so hopefully I'll see a glorious Boggo victory, followed by a routine Murray victory.

john · Top national player

Hmm, not sure how you can claim the choking has substantially decreased for Boggo DJ. Where's the evidence for that exactly?

As for Hutchins/Josh argument, I refuse to believe Hutchins is any better a doubles player than Josh. I saw the Hutchins/Goodall partnership in action in Nottingham and if anything Ross was the weak link. The partnership did very well though, reached an ATP final, won challengers and then they reached a level where Josh would have to stop playing challenger singles to continue the partnership as clearly Ross had his sights set on playing at ATP level doubles. This would have been the easy option for Josh, but instead he has worked hard on improving his singles game and has effectively been penalised for this! Imo if he had decided to become a doubles specialist he would easily have made top 100 by now and probably be higher ranked than Ross. Obviously, I can't quantify this in any way with statistics, it's just my opinion based on what I have seen of both of their games.

So purely in my opinion, Josh is a better doubles player (at the very least, the difference is marginal) and obviously is also a singles option in case of injury or anything else. Therefore, I believe Josh should be in the team.

Almost every British player who's been anywhere near the top 300 over the last few years (and even some who haven't) have had a look in at our DC team, except for Josh. DJ, if you truly believe this is not a personal issue that some people have with him, then you are being extremely naive. However, I do agree that to immediately blame the Murrays is a little unfair and certainly appears to be jumping to conclusions.

-- Edited by john at 02:03, 2008-09-04

Count Zero · Tennis legend

of course we cant say for certain that boggo is choking less, but he didnt really choke in his wimby match, and he has won some tight matches against decent players over the summer, which would suggest that it has improved somewhat.

in this instance i think it is hard to blame the murrays as well, this issue of jm, being an auto pick aside, but if they belive JG could be a disruptive presence in the team then i think it is very hard to inlciude him, esp as he would seem to be a back up at best at the moment.

Shhh · Challenger level

Given the debate here, I wonder what the chances are (in an ironic sense) of Boggo and Josh coming up against each other in France next week!

Count Zero · Tennis legend

consdiering the ammount of top 100 players in the draw i doubt either would mind that 1st rd!

wolf · Tennis legend

Randon fact here: It was in 1997 the last time a British player won a live Davis Cup singles rubber apart from Murray, Henman and Rusedski.

Count Zero · Tennis legend

thats cheering.
who has lost the rubbers since then?
boggo, baker, parmer, mcglalan, mackin.....

mjd · Challenger qualifying

Josh (and Neil Harman) have to realise that you have to be part of the 'in-crowd' to be accepted by the LTA/Lloyd establishment and he isn't - yet!
I wonder what would have happened if Jamie B had been 100% fit?