ATP doubles changes - trial at Madrid Masters and other events

Blue_Belle · Strong Club Player

ATP doubles changes - trial at Madrid Masters and other events

the addict · Tennis legend

I heard about this from an Instagram reel from Abigail Johnson, who has plenty to say about it

https://www.instagram.com/stories/abigailtennis/3338210346056123140/ (only available until about 7pm on 04/04/24)

Here is the link to the ATP news story https://www.atptour.com/en/news/innovative-atp-doubles-trial-2024

-- Edited by the addict on Wednesday 3rd of April 2024 08:04:31 PM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

So, of all those new ideas being trialled, the key one to me seems to me that there's a big push to get far more singles players doing doubles, ousting the normal doubles players

I don't actually have any problem with that but I assume some people will......

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

I quite like that but what it does is limit the opportunities for doubles pairs to progress if theyre outside the top 20 or so pairs. In turn, the field for the masters year end race gets more limited - I actually wonder if they will look to change how pairs qualify for the doubles tour finals. The article talks about creating a better narrative, which I always like, but Im not sure this accomplishes that unless there
Are other changes to the structure of the doubles season

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

For example, the 8 pairs in the tour finals could come purely from points gained in masters 1000 and slam events; making doubles go towards that elite tour concept.

As singles players might be playing those 13 events, some singles players could qualify for the finals that way.

Or change the race points to be individual as opposed to pairs and allow the top 16 players to qualify - meaning one or two scratch pairs could qualify or singles players who perhaps do well with a few different partners are able to get into the finals field.

Either way, the move to me goes towards creating a more elite doubles field of players with focus on the big events for the big players - but perhaps limiting movement into that elite group from below.

Madadman · Top national player

Interesting changes. Actually wonder if this could end up almost killing the doubles. If the number of players that can get in on their doubles ranking is reduced then does taking away those earning opportunities for doubles players start to make it unviable as a career. If you then dont end up with doubles players the draws will reduce and it could become more of a farce with withdrawals. Also stops doubles and singles players mixing which can be good sometimes.

Blue_Belle · Strong Club Player

Doubles already has less prize money and therefore harder to make a living as it is

FlipFlops · Improver

Will be interesting to see how this plays out. I think they need to address Withdrawals from singles players if this is the case, as it happens far too often.

If it's left like this I suspect it will hurt doubles in the long run, albeit potentially increasing viewership short term. It also makes it even less viable for doubles players to make a living but it's good to see they're at least trying to address things. One thing I've never understood is why they don't actually televise any of the doubles in 250's. You wont get any viewership if you don't show the matches.. I don't watch much singles at all in comparison but at 250 level events it's impossible to watch the doubles anyway.

9vicman · Strong Club Player

I also read that doubles teams would have to enter two weeks in advance. Is that later than currently? Quite difficult to plan your schedule if entering so late.

And what happens if the singles players choose to leave the site and not enough players to fill the draw. Can other doubles players hang around on spec?

9vicman · Strong Club Player

9vicman wrote:
I also read that doubles teams would have to enter two weeks in advance. Is that later than currently? Quite difficult to plan your schedule if entering so late.

And what happens if the singles players choose to leave the site and not enough players to fill the draw. Can other doubles players hang around on spec?

I can answer my own question. Doubles entries have always been two weeks before. With less doubles teams accepted in advance it's going to be really tough for doubles specialists though.

wolf · Tennis legend

If the non singles only list is just a doubles only list then there would be a not too dissimilar amount of doubles specialists appearing as of now, albeit probably a few less. Is this an end for singles and doubles alliances?

My main concerns would be there there is normally drastically less fans attending on a grounds pass in week 2 of an event than week 1. The stands for a R1 doubles match on a Thursday are ALWAYS way more packed than a quarter final match on the second Wednesday. Also, are there really going to be 32 singles players willing to actually play when it starts that late, particularly as they could be playing in the ATP Challenger 175 events.

Clearly though it is only a trial so the way they are doing it in this first tournament and I am sure there will be changes moving forward.

The other changes such as shot clock, no sit downs at changeovers and fan movement I like.

wolf · Tennis legend

The is of course a reaction to a possible new elite tour of which doubles is possibly not being included. From Harri Heliovaaras blog a few weeks ago.

In recent weeks, there have been rumors of even bigger upheavals in the tennis world, as Saudi Arabia's money has started to move more and more in the direction of tennis. In golf, the last couple of years have been quite a rollercoaster, with LIV Golf absorbing top players with huge sums of money, and time will tell if the same will happen in tennis as well. What do you think?

Unfortunately, my place in the ATP player's council did not continue for this year, so I haven't been able to join the tables where these big lines of the future are decided, but tennis is certainly at a pretty big crossroads. The Grand Slams have their own show, the ATP, together with the ATP1000 tournaments, have their own, and now even the Saudis want to participate. The ATP Next Gen finals were already played in Saudi Arabia, and there were rumors about getting the ATP1000 competition there as well, but we'll see if that's enough.

I would believe that the future of singles is certainly very lucrative, no matter what happens in terms of future tours, but the future of doubles, on the other hand, makes me think. I am still involved in the ATP doubles review committee, which met virtually last week to consider the future of doubles. Fortunately, the work that started last year to reform the doubles game is now leading to the fact that the doubles game, at least on the ATP tour, will remain part of the portfolio, but already this year we will probably see at least some experiments where they try to make the doubles game even more entertaining. Fewer breaks, shorter matches and more connection with the fans.

For fans, the most interesting doubles games are usually those where the top singles players either measure each other or the singles players play against the doubles players. As an absolute doubles level, these matches are by no means always the so-called the best doubles match, but before the stars, the general public watches tennis. And that's why singles players are also needed in doubles. They bring interest and money. To be honest, quite a few people here in Miami, for example, want to come and watch my doubles, but the audience is sure to be full when, for example, Tiafoe plays doubles, even if he is in the game with half lights on.

So what would you come up with as a solution to that? Do we seriously market doubles ahead of our own stars, or do we try to get more singles players to participate in doubles with better scheduling and shorter matches, and as doubles players are we just happy that the prize money for doubles is growing in the wake of doubles?

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Blue_Belle wrote:
Doubles already has less prize money and therefore harder to make a living as it is

Absolutely

And not televised, in large

Or followed by the public (presumably the two things are connected, although whether it's chicken or egg is not clear)

So the singles events are subsidising doubles

Which makes some sense, then, that they want the singles players to be more involved

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

Pretty much agree with what Madadman says above here. There is little good to see here other than reducing the time between points to 15 seconds, or is it 25? How farcical is that? Hopefully the 15 seconds will see an end to this pointless and annoying hand touching which achieves nothing and the back of the hand conversations that they have had a hundred times before.
Matthew Ebden sounds happy with all this but he's no.2 so he would, I doubt lower ranked players who rely on doubles as their living will be so happy. I don't have any desire to see more 'singles' players playing doubles. They pull out all the time when it suits them and the skill sets of the established doubles players is more than good enough.
As for the 'Free fan movement in the arena during play, adding convenience to the on-site experience', how disrespectful is that to the players and more so to people who want to sit and watch without being disturbed. This is a dumbing down of the spectator experience.
The only thing that doubles needs other than the 15 seconds is increased prize money, the singles players at tour level are generally paid to much. Paying a multi millionaire over £2 million to win a Grand Slam is obscene.

Jan · Hall of fame

I've refrained from commenting so far because I'm no expert. I have mixed feelings about the whole scenario. But I do find myself agreeing with Mark here. I don't get the chance to attend much live tennis, but I certainly wouldn't appreciate people coming and going past me during play. The skills of some of the top doubles players are incredible and attract more than a scratch pair of singles players in my opinion. Time reduction between points has to be a good thing.