Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

emmsie69 · ATP level

Transgender Men in Women's Tennis

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Craig Tiley is a complete tool

And, yes, they have to be proactive on this issue, not just hide their heads and hope it doesn't bite tennis, just other sports, when it's obviously going to

And just to tbe absolutely clear, I am 100% against all discrimination and 100% pro trans rights - as far as they are balanced correctly against others rights (nearly all fundamental human rights are qualified rights - which means their very definition is that they must be balanced against the rights of others, as well as the rights of public health, etc etc - a fact that some seem to forget)

And that means people who went through puberty as men cannot compete in women's sports. My view.

emmsie69 · ATP level

Fortunately Martina has been one of the most vocal against TiM in sport along with Sharron Davies so good luck Craig, you're going to get your backside handed to you

indiana · Tennis legend

Coup Droit wrote:
Craig Tiley is a complete tool

And, yes, they have to be proactive on this issue, not just hide their heads and hope it doesn't bite tennis, just other sports, when it's obviously going to

And just to tbe absolutely clear, I am 100% against all discrimination and 100% pro trans rights - as far as they are balanced correctly against others rights (nearly all fundamental human rights are qualified rights - which means their very definition is that they must be balanced against the rights of others, as well as the rights of public health, etc etc - a fact that some seem to forget)

And that means people who went through puberty as men cannot compete in women's sports. My view.

This !!!

It's a no brainer IMHO

christ · Futures qualifying

Oops. Sorry.

-- Edited by christ on Thursday 15th of June 2023 03:58:17 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

christ wrote:
As posted elsewhere:

christ wrote:
AI find it truly amazing how some people don't understand that discrimination works both ways: discriminating "for" one group inevitably discriminates "against" another.

-- Edited by christ on Tuesday 13th of June 2023 02:42:24 PM

Not really. Trying to deal with many of the "isms" is about trying to introduce fairness and a level playing field. Not discriminating against these currently discriminated in favour of.

The nonsense being discussed here is another matter

Grachka · Club Coach

I've learned from experience that nothing is to be gained from arguing about this on the internet, but all I'll say is that it's a laudable aim to work for inclusion of trans people (whether trans women or men) in sport / tennis, however complicated the issue. They are an extremely persecuted and marginalised minority and I think it unfair to belittle the argument for a standpoint of inclusion, rather than exclusion.

Any new policy would have more of an impact at lower non-professional levels too, considering the lack of trans women competing on the tour now (and in recent memory).

Just a note that the title isn't talking about what you are talking about, as the controversy is centred around the participation of transgender women in women's sport, not transgender men.

emmsie69 · ATP level

Grachka wrote:
I've learned from experience that nothing is to be gained from arguing about this on the internet, but all I'll say is that it's a laudable aim to work for inclusion of trans people (whether trans women or men) in sport / tennis, however complicated the issue. They are an extremely persecuted and marginalised minority and I think it unfair to belittle the argument for a standpoint of inclusion, rather than exclusion.

Any new policy would have more of an impact at lower non-professional levels too, considering the lack of trans women competing on the tour now (and in recent memory).

Just a note that the title isn't talking about what you are talking about, as the controversy is centred around the participation of transgender women in women's sport, not transgender men.

TiM = Trans identifying Man ie a man that claims he is a Woman TiF = Trans identifying Female ie a Woman that claims she is a Man. Biology and chromosomes matter and no one with a Y chromosome should be competing in a Female category. Is that clear enough for you.

And for the record Transgenders are in no way the most marginalised in Society.

Grachka · Club Coach

emmsie69 wrote:
Grachka wrote:
I've learned from experience that nothing is to be gained from arguing about this on the internet, but all I'll say is that it's a laudable aim to work for inclusion of trans people (whether trans women or men) in sport / tennis, however complicated the issue. They are an extremely persecuted and marginalised minority and I think it unfair to belittle the argument for a standpoint of inclusion, rather than exclusion.

Any new policy would have more of an impact at lower non-professional levels too, considering the lack of trans women competing on the tour now (and in recent memory).

Just a note that the title isn't talking about what you are talking about, as the controversy is centred around the participation of transgender women in women's sport, not transgender men.
TiM = Trans identifying Man ie a man that claims he is a Woman TiF = Trans identifying Female ie a Woman that claims she is a Man. Biology and chromosomes matter and no one with a Y chromosome should be competing in a Female category. Is that clear enough for you.
And for the record Transgenders are in no way the most marginalised in Society.

The title says "transgender men" - well recognised as men who were assigned female at birth and have transitioned to being a man. Clearly if you don't feel the basic need to respect who they are, regardless of how you feel about trans participation in sport, then that tells me more than enough.

Also I did not say they were the "most" marginalised, nor do I think it's a competition. But they are very clearly marginalised and often persecuted.

-- Edited by Grachka on Tuesday 13th of June 2023 06:28:10 PM

-- Edited by Grachka on Tuesday 13th of June 2023 07:58:05 PM

Shhh · Challenger level

emmsie69 wrote:
Grachka wrote:
I've learned from experience that nothing is to be gained from arguing about this on the internet, but all I'll say is that it's a laudable aim to work for inclusion of trans people (whether trans women or men) in sport / tennis, however complicated the issue. They are an extremely persecuted and marginalised minority and I think it unfair to belittle the argument for a standpoint of inclusion, rather than exclusion.

Any new policy would have more of an impact at lower non-professional levels too, considering the lack of trans women competing on the tour now (and in recent memory).

Just a note that the title isn't talking about what you are talking about, as the controversy is centred around the participation of transgender women in women's sport, not transgender men.
TiM = Trans identifying Man ie a man that claims he is a Woman TiF = Trans identifying Female ie a Woman that claims she is a Man. Biology and chromosomes matter and no one with a Y chromosome should be competing in a Female category. Is that clear enough for you.
And for the record Transgenders are in no way the most marginalised in Society.

No need to reply like that emmsie.

Jajon · Strong Club Player

emmsie69 wrote:
Grachka wrote:
I've learned from experience that nothing is to be gained from arguing about this on the internet, but all I'll say is that it's a laudable aim to work for inclusion of trans people (whether trans women or men) in sport / tennis, however complicated the issue. They are an extremely persecuted and marginalised minority and I think it unfair to belittle the argument for a standpoint of inclusion, rather than exclusion.

Any new policy would have more of an impact at lower non-professional levels too, considering the lack of trans women competing on the tour now (and in recent memory).

Just a note that the title isn't talking about what you are talking about, as the controversy is centred around the participation of transgender women in women's sport, not transgender men.
TiM = Trans identifying Man ie a man that claims he is a Woman TiF = Trans identifying Female ie a Woman that claims she is a Man. Biology and chromosomes matter and no one with a Y chromosome should be competing in a Female category. Is that clear enough for you.
And for the record Transgenders are in no way the most marginalised in Society.

ooooft the absolute bad vibes of this post. Telling on yourself that youve never met a trans person. Get off Twitter, I beg!

Honestly think this is fairly simple though, obviously any initiatives that look to grow the sport and include groups which are previously underrepresented is laudable, but when it comes to professional sport- Trans women shouldnt be allowed to compete against women. I get that that might be a bit rough for the trans women involved- but such is life! Sorry! Im not 6ft8 so my career as a basketball player never took off! Biology sucks! Now go live your life!

(i would say the general debate about trans people in this country is absolutely wild though, considering how few of them there are. As a big gay Ive probably been around more LGBT places than most and reckon I know about 3- how they cause so much news is truly crazy when the vast majority just want to live their own life and do their own thing- just like everyone else!)

Steve J · Lower Club Player

You can have fairness or you can have trans identifying males in female sport.

It is over 20 months since the Sport Councils' Equality Group issued their guidance on trans inclusion and there are still UK sports governing bodies that have not sorted themselves out.

equalityinsport.org/docs/300921/Guidance%20for%20Transgender%20Inclusion%20in%20Domestic%20Sport%202021.pdf

https://www.womensrights.network/sporting-body-policies

christ · Futures qualifying

Oops I did it again.

-- Edited by christ on Thursday 15th of June 2023 03:57:46 PM

christ · Futures qualifying

And I did it again.

-- Edited by christ on Thursday 15th of June 2023 03:58:42 PM

Jajon · Strong Club Player

Iszac Henig is a female to male swimmer, competing against men in the college system in the States I believe. Also, mental health issues and homelessness are a lot higher in trans people than the general population. Obviously hard to know the causes, but youd imagine stigma/discrimination plays a part? Obviously in the UK its v different, but the rates of murder against trans people in other countries (eg Brazil, probs US but theyre nuts anyway) is crazy and I think theyre 4 times more likely to be victims of violent crimes.

All of that to say, its perfectly possible to think trans women shouldnt be allowed to compete against biological women, while still not being unnecessarily rude/disrespectful/aware that they do have challenges in society! (Aka my point of view)