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Post Info TOPIC: British men -- few coming through


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British men -- few coming through


I have just posted this response to some points made in the WTA Rome thread. It is essentially about the little discussed issue of lack of depth and young prospects among the British men, as against much general discussion about our women.

Any other thoughts regarding this issue and such as what needs to change?

 

"I agree, emnsie, and yes I do think this anomaly, as it were, is that these who like to comment in depth far more follow the women. The effect then is that, while I am sure just about all ( maybe indeed all ) are supportive of our women, the forum in general can then seem to be more critical of our women. But then I would think most of us want to hear and discuss honest opinions and we can't make folk take more interest in our men. It kind of is what it is

It remains by number historically a decent group of youngish ( but getting older ) top10 Btitish women but overall not progressing quite as hoped, say when our best top 10 ranking average this century was set nearly 3 years ago. That was 190.1 in June 2018 while our latest top 10 average is 200.1 so only 10 worse. ( stats from the Strongest Nation thread ). Just I and I am sure many others hoped for more, though I give more of a pass in the last year or so with covid. 

But yes, I have said before, the lack of depth in our men, and the lack of new players coming through, is to me far more concerning. After our best 7 ranked ( some who have been performing very well ( Dan, Cam, Liam ), some we hope for more from but still with time on their side ( Jay, Jack ), particularly Jack, and some who have been injured ( Kyle, Andy ) who is there out there?? 

Paul hopefully, Ryan, Anton maybe, then we are arguably going down to recent juniors for just again hope at this stage, such as Arthur and Felix. And then Jack PJ is currently our only junior wirh a senior ranking. For now, for Aidan, yes, and others, it's not happening.

While it has been great to see some of the results of Dan, Cam and Liam this year, we really do need to enjoy them,, for the cupboard is prerty bare beyond them. But generally our men escape because of the less detailed analysis compared to our women who at least offer us numbers and still a number of good uoward possibilities. 

Sorry for further diverging, regarding our men, in the women's section. But I thought it was interesting points emmsie made. I think I will use this as a starter for a thread in the men's section, for any further thoughts on the situation with our men." 



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Jack Draper has definitely got promise and Anton too both good juniors transitioning well. Aidan I have seen plenty times in Challengers in Glasgow and ITF tournaments. He was a really promising junior but appears to have stagnated, only time I have seen him win was against Ferey. I dont know if the hype of being signed to Andy Murray s stable has hindered or helped.

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I think for the men, I agree it is looking very bare. I do think an issue in mens tennis is very much that there are too many competing alternatives. A young man with an eye for sport, will find it is cheaper and more accessible to turn to other sports, football clearly being the leader but others such as athletics, rugby, basketball, cycling are sports where you can compete locally and also be part of a team camarederie. The money needed to make it to the top in tennis must put a lot off, if not at an early stage then as they start to compete internationally, it takes deep pockets and resolve to keep on going. Football doesnt need that; cycling neither. You play your sport and grow in a team environment as you become a young pro and effectively get paid a salary for your efforts; in tennis it is largely based on prizemoney and for many that is unsustainable if you dont make it big.

Traipsing around the world from Dominan Republic, to Tunisia, to Turkey to Italy and all over might sound exotic - but it is a) expensive b) very tiring c) lonely d) quite often not at all exotic as you stay in some poor accommodation and e) demoralising as you search for aa win against a hungry young player from Croatia or wherever.

I think more and more things like eSports come into it or, in fact, just plain old working and getting on with a career. And I think that hits the men a lot. I havent even mentioned golf where two things make a big difference - prizemoney is bigger and deeper; if you look at players earning that level of £200k plus which you need to sustain a career of travelling then golf goes much, much deeper. Secondly, you can build a career locally much easier before you hit the world tour (ie a Brit can play British events, then European PGA, then go to the States for the big money, and do that very happily financially). A US PGA Tour winner, in a sport sustained by TV, can earn $1.5m at the week in week out PGA Tour stops. A WHOLE ATP tour event at 500 level , let aone 250 , doesnt have that level of prizemoney. If you get to the USA, albeit it is for the top 125 or so in the tour, maybe from the top 250 in the world, you can sustain a career travelling largely aounnd one country, not globetrotting.

In short, we dont get the numbers of talented athletes coming into the sport, others are more attractive, and thus we push out lower quality athletes at the other end.

I dont see that changing any time soon - the sad thing is that Andy's massive success of winning 3 slams is never going to turn into the success down the line that perhaps the Borg years did for Sweden in the later 80's and 90's. Andys peak has gone and we have missed that boat.

Here are the list of the current English players in the World Top 500 golfers - 39 of them. I ask anyone to say they recognise the names of over half of these. Matthew Baldwin at #486 has a career high of 180. He is the Lloyd Glasspool of golf perhaps. Baldwin has won $1.5m dollars in his career according to his profile on European PGA site; Lloyd has won $176k; or maybe Liam Broady (I am being unfair to Liam as he is well above Baldwin rankings wise!) and he has won $750k - half what Baldwin has won)

Enough said - maybe it is one example but I think it helps make the point...


This Week Last week End 2020 Ctry Name Average Points Total Points Events Played (Divisor) Points Lost (2021) Points Gained (2021) Events Played (Actual)
9 8 10 ENG Tyrrell Hatton 5.9022 289.21 49 -77.89 78.38 49
17 17 16 ENG Matthew Fitzpatrick 4.4609 231.97 52 -70.81 65.90 56
20 20 24 ENG Paul Casey 4.0328 201.64 50 -70.98 101.28 50
23 22 36 ENG Lee Westwood 3.9302 188.65 48 -36.91 92.65 48
26 27 17 ENG Tommy Fleetwood 3.6008 187.24 52 -76.83 45.76 53
41 41 35 ENG Justin Rose 2.7864 130.96 47 -60.72 48.21 47
52 52 50 ENG Matt Wallace 2.3194 120.61 52 -46.59 48.92 62
65 64 48 ENG Ian Poulter 1.8787 97.69 52 -41.48 24.91 54
72 69 58 ENG Andy Sullivan 1.7612 82.78 47 -26.15 9.01 47
86 85 101 ENG Sam Horsfield 1.5727 69.20 44 -18.93 21.06 44
89 89 77 ENG Aaron Rai 1.5036 69.17 46 -22.39 8.87 46
92 90 67 ENG Danny Willett 1.4816 77.04 52 -39.12 15.08 55
112 110 73 ENG Tom Lewis 1.2998 67.59 52 -30.47 10.12 53
119 120 127 ENG Laurie Canter 1.2460 58.56 47 -12.02 16.13 47
159 155 134 ENG Callum Shinkwin 1.0034 40.14 40 -11.88 1.80 40
193 192 189 ENG Marcus Armitage 0.8278 39.73 48 -8.35 8.92 48
210 210 129 ENG Eddie Pepperell 0.7653 31.38 41 -20.85 2.26 41
212 203 254 ENG Chris Paisley 0.7569 35.58 47 -10.88 14.81 47
218 219 192 ENG Richard Bland 0.7241 36.93 51 -11.74 6.12 51
222 215 137 ENG Paul Waring(Feb1985) 0.7025 28.10 40 -19.06 - 39
237 280 214 ENG Andrew Johnston 0.6690 26.76 40 -11.12 5.18 25
250 242 186 ENG Jordan L Smith 0.6285 31.43 50 -15.92 1.44 50
252 251 227 ENG Matthew Southgate 0.6248 31.86 51 -13.62 5.50 51
254 243 194 ENG Matthew Jordan 0.6226 29.26 47 -13.13 - 47
261 253 242 ENG Steven Brown 0.6048 31.45 52 -10.30 3.95 54
268 262 222 ENG Robert Rock 0.5821 23.28 40 -8.67 - 35
275 265 274 ENG David Horsey 0.5622 25.30 45 -7.42 5.40 45
277 272 215 ENG Ross Fisher 0.5564 25.04 45 -11.74 - 45
291 311 255 ENG Richard Mansell 0.5306 21.22 40 -7.19 2.26 35
303 296 251 ENG Jack Senior 0.5100 26.52 52 -11.80 3.12 55
318 310 268 ENG Dale Whitnell 0.4646 19.98 43 -6.70 1.98 43
323 317 259 ENG Ross McGowan 0.4566 23.75 52 -9.70 - 55
432 426 420 ENG James Morrison 0.3206 16.03 50 -5.29 2.90 50
433 422 403 ENG Harry Hall 0.3198 12.79 40 -3.83 1.22 22
434 424 386 ENG Matt Ford 0.3180 12.72 40 -3.61 - 38
450 441 395 ENG Ben Stow 0.2879 11.52 40 -5.61 - 40
453 444 397 ENG Andrew Wilson 0.2841 11.37 40 -4.47 - 25
471 459 515 ENG Garrick Porteous 0.2638 11.87 45 -2.72 3.73 45
486 478 408 ENG Matthew Baldwin 0.2550 13.26 52 -5.38 - 52



-- Edited by JonH comes home on Friday 14th of May 2021 10:27:57 PM



-- Edited by JonH comes home on Saturday 15th of May 2021 11:04:56 AM

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Expense is definitely an issue, until you read Judy Murray's autobiography you don't realise just how much financial strain she put herself under to make it possible for her 2 boys. I don't think I could have lain there until the early hours of the morning staring at the ceiling wondering how I was ever going to pay all the money back. How do other countries get round this issue though? More domestic tournaments perhaps, for starters?

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I don't accept the competing alternatives theory.

Many other countries have exactly the same competing alternatives but manage to produce tennis players.

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Coup Droit wrote:

I don't accept the competing alternatives theory.

Many other countries have exactly the same competing alternatives but manage to produce tennis players.


 Very true CD, fair point. 

 

 I reckon we could do worse than to find out what the Italians have been doing in recent years. 



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Priesty wrote:
Coup Droit wrote:

I don't accept the competing alternatives theory.

Many other countries have exactly the same competing alternatives but manage to produce tennis players.


 Very true CD, fair point. 

 

 I reckon we could do worse than to find out what the Italians have been doing in recent years. 


 Absolutely. Which is why it was so infuriating to have some LTA guy (can't remember who it was) being interviewed on TV (during the US Open? The French? Again, can't remember but recently) being asked exactly that question and saying in his opinion it was just fluke, random alignment of the stars, and nothing worth investigating.....



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Ok havent time to debate. I agree, very clearly the Italian system is generating players and ours isnt. And we need to understand that and do more with the players we have. Dont disagree.

But our funnel is small and leaky and its naive to not think thats an issue. Id argue more so than many countries where tennis is still perceived as an elite sport.

But nothing knew there, I just believe the competing elements are getting bigger and more. I think the USA is impacted in a similar way.

Anyway, out of here.

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I agree with the comments on expense. I know plenty of boys who gave up tennis for other sports simply because of the spiralling costs. Also unless you can afford for a coach to take your child to tournaments etc, the time parents have to dedicate to one child is substantial - difficult if you have work commitments and other children.

The LTA have a poor track record of player development and sadly continue to repeat the same mistakes. Too middle class, lack diversity, select their favourites at too young an age etc, etc

The world of junior tennis is very middle class. The majority of the boys my son knows who were playing LTA grade 1, grade 2 and to a lesser extent TE or ITF tournaments, were very bright, attended school full time, attended private school or had places at top performing state schools. Most of them combined A levels with the now defunct tennis AASE (provided funding and a great way of getting a performance squad together). A high number of parents expected them to go to university, either here or on a scholarship to the US.

Is college the way to produce tennis player? IMO only truly exceptional male players should be trying to go pro at 18. At 18 many men arent physically or mentally tough enough for the tour; the average age for a male tennis player is 27.7. A few we know who have tried eg. Finn Bass, Jose Rose have not done particularly well and have either gone to college (FB) or become a tennis coach (JR). I am following Paul Jubbs career with interest - he did very well from the college tennis pathway, I really hope the LTA can continue to support him.

Apart from the monetary value of a college scholarship, D1 student athletes get the chance to compete as a team at a decent level (not as many opportunities to do this here) rather than as an individual all of the time. Student-athletes not only have good have a education to fall back on, they are often sought after in the job market because of the skills theyve acquired eg self reliance, living in another country, work ethic etc. The rewards maybe greater than if they tried to turn pro??

Bit of an older article, but still interesting : www.businessinsider.com/wall-streets-tennis-players-2014-8

www.uscollegeshowcaseasia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/going-to-college-or-turning-pro.pdf


By our calculations an 18 year old boy ranked 100 in the world in 1997 had a less than one-thousandth of a percent (0.001%) chance of earning more than US$10 million in prize money over his tennis career. This isnt a lot of money when you subtract the cost of competing - which averaged US$38,800 for male players and US$40,180 for female players in 2013, not including the cost of a coach.

theconversation.com/why-so-many-tennis-players-go-pro-even-though-few-make-it-88243

Tennis has to be the childs passion, not the parents. I know plenty of players who have quit because they simply stopped enjoying tennis, or it was more driven by the parents than the child.

Bit of a long post, but player development and support is an area the LTA could/should do so much to improve upon!

.........and for those still awake, a few links below, all of which agree with the issues many of you have commented on: expense, the difficulties of life on tour and the financial struggle to make a living for lower ranked players.

https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-features/johnny-nic-on-why-tennis-needs-become-inclusive-working-class-sport/

https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-features/johnny-nic-tennis-lonely-world-mental-health-player-wellness/

https://www.theringer.com/2020/9/3/21417335/tennis-reform-2020-us-open

edit- hopefully the links will work now 



-- Edited by Elegant Point on Saturday 15th of May 2021 03:39:08 PM

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Good post EP. Will have a look at the detail when back home later

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JonH comes home wrote:

I think for the men, I agree it is looking very bare. I do think an issue in mens tennis is very much that there are too many competing alternatives. A young man with an eye for sport, will find it is cheaper and more accessible to turn to other sports, football clearly being the leader but others such as athletics, rugby, basketball, cycling are sports where you can compete locally and also be part of a team camarederie. The money needed to make it to the top in tennis must put a lot off, if not at an early stage then as they start to compete internationally, it takes deep pockets and resolve to keep on going. Football doesnt need that; cycling neither. You play your sport and grow in a team environment as you become a young pro and effectively get paid a salary for your efforts; in tennis it is largely based on prizemoney and for many that is unsustainable if you dont make it big.

Traipsing around the world from Dominan Republic, to Tunisia, to Turkey to Italy and all over might sound exotic - but it is a) expensive b) very tiring c) lonely d) quite often not at all exotic as you stay in some poor accommodation and e) demoralising as you search for aa win against a hungry young player from Croatia or wherever.

I think more and more things like eSports come into it or, in fact, just plain old working and getting on with a career. And I think that hits the men a lot. I havent even mentioned golf where two things make a big difference - prizemoney is bigger and deeper; if you look at players earning that level of £200k plus which you need to sustain a career of travelling then golf goes much, much deeper. Secondly, you can build a career locally much easier before you hit the world tour (ie a Brit can play British events, then European PGA, then go to the States for the big money, and do that very happily financially). A US PGA Tour winner, in a sport sustained by TV, can earn $1.5m at the week in week out PGA Tour stops. A WHOLE ATP tour event at 500 level , let aone 250 , doesnt have that level of prizemoney. If you get to the USA, albeit it is for the top 125 or so in the tour, maybe from the top 250 in the world, you can sustain a career travelling largely aounnd one country, not globetrotting.

In short, we dont get the numbers of talented athletes coming into the sport, others are more attractive, and thus we push out lower quality athletes at the other end.

I dont see that changing any time soon - the sad thing is that Andy's massive success of winning 3 slams is never going to turn into the success down the line that perhaps the Borg years did for Sweden in the later 80's and 90's. Andys peak has gone and we have missed that boat.

Here are the list of the current English players in the World Top 500 golfers - 39 of them. I ask anyone to say they recognise the names of over half of these. Matthew Baldwin at #486 has a career high of 180. He is the Lloyd Glasspool of golf perhaps. Baldwin has won $1.5m dollars in his career according to his profile on European PGA site; Lloyd has won $176k; or maybe Liam Broady (I am being unfair to Liam as he is well above Baldwin rankings wise!) and he has won $750k - half what Baldwin has won)

Enough said - maybe it is one example but I think it helps make the point...


This Week Last week End 2020 Ctry Name Average Points Total Points Events Played (Divisor) Points Lost (2021) Points Gained (2021) Events Played (Actual)
9 8 10 ENG Tyrrell Hatton 5.9022 289.21 49 -77.89 78.38 49
17 17 16 ENG Matthew Fitzpatrick 4.4609 231.97 52 -70.81 65.90 56
20 20 24 ENG Paul Casey 4.0328 201.64 50 -70.98 101.28 50
23 22 36 ENG Lee Westwood 3.9302 188.65 48 -36.91 92.65 48
26 27 17 ENG Tommy Fleetwood 3.6008 187.24 52 -76.83 45.76 53
41 41 35 ENG Justin Rose 2.7864 130.96 47 -60.72 48.21 47
52 52 50 ENG Matt Wallace 2.3194 120.61 52 -46.59 48.92 62
65 64 48 ENG Ian Poulter 1.8787 97.69 52 -41.48 24.91 54
72 69 58 ENG Andy Sullivan 1.7612 82.78 47 -26.15 9.01 47
86 85 101 ENG Sam Horsfield 1.5727 69.20 44 -18.93 21.06 44
89 89 77 ENG Aaron Rai 1.5036 69.17 46 -22.39 8.87 46
92 90 67 ENG Danny Willett 1.4816 77.04 52 -39.12 15.08 55
112 110 73 ENG Tom Lewis 1.2998 67.59 52 -30.47 10.12 53
119 120 127 ENG Laurie Canter 1.2460 58.56 47 -12.02 16.13 47
159 155 134 ENG Callum Shinkwin 1.0034 40.14 40 -11.88 1.80 40
193 192 189 ENG Marcus Armitage 0.8278 39.73 48 -8.35 8.92 48
210 210 129 ENG Eddie Pepperell 0.7653 31.38 41 -20.85 2.26 41
212 203 254 ENG Chris Paisley 0.7569 35.58 47 -10.88 14.81 47
218 219 192 ENG Richard Bland 0.7241 36.93 51 -11.74 6.12 51
222 215 137 ENG Paul Waring(Feb1985) 0.7025 28.10 40 -19.06 - 39
237 280 214 ENG Andrew Johnston 0.6690 26.76 40 -11.12 5.18 25
250 242 186 ENG Jordan L Smith 0.6285 31.43 50 -15.92 1.44 50
252 251 227 ENG Matthew Southgate 0.6248 31.86 51 -13.62 5.50 51
254 243 194 ENG Matthew Jordan 0.6226 29.26 47 -13.13 - 47
261 253 242 ENG Steven Brown 0.6048 31.45 52 -10.30 3.95 54
268 262 222 ENG Robert Rock 0.5821 23.28 40 -8.67 - 35
275 265 274 ENG David Horsey 0.5622 25.30 45 -7.42 5.40 45
277 272 215 ENG Ross Fisher 0.5564 25.04 45 -11.74 - 45
291 311 255 ENG Richard Mansell 0.5306 21.22 40 -7.19 2.26 35
303 296 251 ENG Jack Senior 0.5100 26.52 52 -11.80 3.12 55
318 310 268 ENG Dale Whitnell 0.4646 19.98 43 -6.70 1.98 43
323 317 259 ENG Ross McGowan 0.4566 23.75 52 -9.70 - 55
432 426 420 ENG James Morrison 0.3206 16.03 50 -5.29 2.90 50
433 422 403 ENG Harry Hall 0.3198 12.79 40 -3.83 1.22 22
434 424 386 ENG Matt Ford 0.3180 12.72 40 -3.61 - 38
450 441 395 ENG Ben Stow 0.2879 11.52 40 -5.61 - 40
453 444 397 ENG Andrew Wilson 0.2841 11.37 40 -4.47 - 25
471 459 515 ENG Garrick Porteous 0.2638 11.87 45 -2.72 3.73 45
486 478 408 ENG Matthew Baldwin 0.2550 13.26 52 -5.38 - 52



-- Edited by JonH comes home on Friday 14th of May 2021 10:27:57 PM



-- Edited by JonH comes home on Saturday 15th of May 2021 11:04:56 AM


 Jon, Matthew Baldwin is one of a number of golfers listed  born in Merseyside. Tommy Fleetwood, Matthew Jordan and Paul Waring were also born on Merseyside. The list also includes 2 major winners in Justin Rose and Danny Willett. There have also been major golf winners from Northern Ireland and Eire in the last 15 years. From a tennis point of view the name Laurie Canter is of some interest. He was a tennis junior until the the age of 14 and played in a team match against Andy Murray.  He then gave up tennis and took up golf instead. The development structure for a young golfer is totally different than for a young tennis player and he was glad he took up golf which he reckons he can play pro. successfully l until the age of 45. He has played in the Open.Re recognising names I saw Harry Hall playing as an amateur in the 2019 Walker Cup at Royal Liverpool.  



-- Edited by GAMEOVER on Saturday 15th of May 2021 02:33:43 PM

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Yeah bar Roger Drapers son we dont seem to have many players coming through.

I wonder why..

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Agree with lots of the above, cost, middle class, London centric lta, lta cherry picking at early age doesn't really help. Also both boys and girls I suspect there are some very good players who actually dont really enjoy tennis, but have been dragged along by success and parental hopes, but when they get to 17/18 don't really have the drive needed. If one of these types is one who has had lots of lta support for years, in preference to others it's even worse.
For the men I think us college may provide us with more top 100 players in time. There is a competitive environment there and boys develop their full size and strength later, and won't be so much thinking about how long to carry on in their thirties if they want a family as some women will be. Equally us college may provide us with some women players in time. It is easy to forget who is over there despite the useful posts on this forum to help.
Numbers playing should help. It is extremely difficult for the average aspiring player to trudge round europe or wherever to junior itfs then 15k tournaments to pick up points and climb the ladder, not to mention expensive, and in fact it takes time away from training if away for weeks and then losing early on in the week several times.
More team trips to tournaments for younger players eg 10 to 12 yrs old, where a tennis centre/club takes a group of players so parents dont need to, but of course needs to be made affordable. For this to work some tournament acceptances would need to be different as well.
Tennis is a difficult individual sport, some will give up as other sports take over, especially football for boys, some will be put off by poor experiences at tournaments such as line calling and lack of help from officials over this.
I agree we have overlooked the men a bit as with andy, then dan, kyle, cam it seems quite good at the top level.



-- Edited by Spireman on Saturday 15th of May 2021 02:42:12 PM

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One of my questions is where are all the tall British boys? What are they doing?

I know height isn't everything but we're a reasonably tall nation.

And I know we have some male players who are fairly tall by normal standards, although not necessarily by tennis standards - Kyle, Jay, Jack, maybe Anton.....

But we have hardly any 'tall' players and a lot coming through like Felix, Arthur, Jack PJ, who are well on the shorter side (although may have a late growth spurt, of course).

What sport do the tall lads gravitate towards?

(PS Luke Hammond in the States, at college, would you like to step up and fill the gap???)

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Coup Droit wrote:

One of my questions is where are all the tall British boys? What are they doing?

I know height isn't everything but we're a reasonably tall nation.

And I know we have some male players who are fairly tall by normal standards, although not necessarily by tennis standards - Kyle, Jay, Jack, maybe Anton.....

But we have hardly any 'tall' players and a lot coming through like Felix, Arthur, Jack PJ, who are well on the shorter side (although may have a late growth spurt, of course).

What sport do the tall lads gravitate towards?

(PS Luke Hammond in the States, at college, would you like to step up and fill the gap???)


 Goalkeepers in football? Maybe some do basketball, rugby back row, football centre half? If you mean 6ft 6 plus there really arent too many boys who get that tall and then many of them may not be sporty. I dont think the uk is as tall generally as countries like holland, Germany, also Scandinavia. Isner and Opelka are both US obviously but it seems to me 6ft 3 is a decent height to still have an all round game like murray as well as power. One reason I follow Dan so much is it seems more worthy when a less tall male player succeeds!



-- Edited by Spireman on Sunday 16th of May 2021 12:27:53 PM

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