Weeks 3-4 - Australian Open, Women's Main Draw - Melbourne, Australia - Hard

indiana · Tennis legend

Weeks 3-4 - Australian Open, Women's Main Draw - Melbourne, Australia - Hard

ROSAMUND · Futures level

Andy Parker wrote:

Maybe the situation isn't as dire as some on here think. For a start it is worth pointing out that even if our population seems a lot, there are over 7 billion or 7 thousand million people in the world, so the fact is that we are only a medium size nation, and there are lots of other nations are into tennis, want to do well and have lots of players.

The second thing is specifics - as lots of others have pointed out, leaving Jo Ko aside, our players had tough draws - Svitolina, Halep and to a lesser extent Mertens, are three of the strongest players in the world, so the fact that Katie B, Harriet and Heather went out to them does not make them failures, in any sensible analysis of where our players are currently ranked and what you would have expected to have happened.

Everyone is right to say that Katie B got a lot more games than most of us predicted against Svitolina, and that she played well. She is gradually getting back from injury and this looks like a good pointer to me that she will make it back in to the top 100 at some point in the not too distant future; I think that if she can stay injury free (and it is a big if I know) that she could have a massively successful career in the future.

It is also lovely to see Heather playing well, not just here, but having good early season form elsewhere on the circuit, and Heather looks to be fitter and playing better than I have seen her do for years. Harriet also qualified with three wins and had a first round win against Doi, who is no bad player - again, Harriet looks to be picking up her form and hopefully can push on to make the top 100, though like others say, getting her serve improved is vital to her progress.

Then add in Katie Swan, who looks to need to deal with some deep seated psychological issues, but if she can get through those, then she is a fantastic talent who could easily be a top 100 player. It is early days but Emma Raducanu looks a good prospect and Jodie Burrage is progressing reasonably well, so all in all I still believe things will be better in a couple of years.

As for the lengthy debate on Fed Cup selections, Eden Silva looked fantastic in the mixed doubles at Wimbledon this year, and if we are struggling to find any doubles players, both she and Katie Swan would for me be decent choices, though neither are that experienced at doubles.

Maybe I've rose tinted specs, but I take more positives from the Aussie Open than negatives.

As it turned out I think Jo had a tough draw because Jabeur has gone on to beat Garcia and Woniacki in her last match.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

With Serena (8th seed) and Madison Keys (10th seed) both losing today, America has had a bit of downer !

PS In terms of GB's performance, I'm glad others have a more positive view; I don't really see it myself, or the tough draw argument. Although I do accept we could have done worse...... smile cry

-- Edited by Coup Droit on Friday 24th of January 2020 08:04:34 AM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

But Coca Gauff beat Osaka to get some pride back for the USA!

wales1994 · Club Coach

ROSAMUND wrote:
Andy Parker wrote:
Maybe the situation isn't as dire as some on here think. For a start it is worth pointing out that even if our population seems a lot, there are over 7 billion or 7 thousand million people in the world, so the fact is that we are only a medium size nation, and there are lots of other nations are into tennis, want to do well and have lots of players.

The second thing is specifics - as lots of others have pointed out, leaving Jo Ko aside, our players had tough draws - Svitolina, Halep and to a lesser extent Mertens, are three of the strongest players in the world, so the fact that Katie B, Harriet and Heather went out to them does not make them failures, in any sensible analysis of where our players are currently ranked and what you would have expected to have happened.

Everyone is right to say that Katie B got a lot more games than most of us predicted against Svitolina, and that she played well. She is gradually getting back from injury and this looks like a good pointer to me that she will make it back in to the top 100 at some point in the not too distant future; I think that if she can stay injury free (and it is a big if I know) that she could have a massively successful career in the future.

It is also lovely to see Heather playing well, not just here, but having good early season form elsewhere on the circuit, and Heather looks to be fitter and playing better than I have seen her do for years. Harriet also qualified with three wins and had a first round win against Doi, who is no bad player - again, Harriet looks to be picking up her form and hopefully can push on to make the top 100, though like others say, getting her serve improved is vital to her progress.

Then add in Katie Swan, who looks to need to deal with some deep seated psychological issues, but if she can get through those, then she is a fantastic talent who could easily be a top 100 player. It is early days but Emma Raducanu looks a good prospect and Jodie Burrage is progressing reasonably well, so all in all I still believe things will be better in a couple of years.

As for the lengthy debate on Fed Cup selections, Eden Silva looked fantastic in the mixed doubles at Wimbledon this year, and if we are struggling to find any doubles players, both she and Katie Swan would for me be decent choices, though neither are that experienced at doubles.

Maybe I've rose tinted specs, but I take more positives from the Aussie Open than negatives.

As it turned out I think Jo had a tough draw because Jabeur has gone on to beat Garcia and Woniacki in her last match.

Speaking of Eden Silva... where is she? It seemed like she gained some confidence traction after her mixed doubles but then just kept playing events a bit too high for her for the moment. She's not shown up yet this year? She's so close to the top 100 in doubles too... definitely a player I want to see make a bit of a leap.

I do feel there's a depth issue in GB women's tennis now.... Emma Raducanu and Mathilda are the only exciting juniors of note. The current crop, we have Heather (I'm a massive fan) who shows up once in a while then fades again - I hope this time is different. Harriet Dart is a HARD worker, I really see her being consistently 70-100 once she breaks the top 100 duck - but I don't think she'll go much further, just based on lack of power, serve or any particular weapon. Katie Swan is a bit forgotten for me these days, since she won a round at Wimbledon... she hasn't really done much. Which is frustrating as she has the weapons! I hope she proves me wrong but I'm not optimistic with her. Katie Boulter will probably get back to former highs and I believe if injury free, she'll be 40-60 for a few years. Konta has been a star for us, we've not had a player like that in my lifetime! BUT, I feel last year might've been her final high, (again, hope I'm completely wrong). I always loved Katy Dunne but she's somewhat faded and disappeared since her MD Wimby appearance. Sam Murray is having a great post-30 career, but how long will she continue playing for? Jodie Burrage has an exciting game but her injuries always derail her progress. Bains I don't really see getting up much further. And who on earth knows what happened with Gabi Taylor?

It's weird that the strong cohort we had 2 years ago, with Gabi, Katie B, Katie S and Katy are where they are now. Really hope things pick up soon, but I'm feeling FAR less optimistic than I was in June 2018!

ROSAMUND · Futures level

Coup Droit wrote:
ROSAMUND wrote:
Status Quo wrote:
We're rubbish.
Whenever you ask why though, especially here, people just say we're rubbish and that's that. That weather, culture, resources, infrastructure, participation rates, culture and others are just bad and/or so completely different compared to otherwise analogous countries that we shouldn't really expect to ever compete. Which I find a baffling attitude, especially amongst fans, the supposed vanguard to champion the sport, but there you go.

Still, we're not the only ones with a disappointing AO 2020.
This from Matt Roberts, of The Tennis Podcast: Despite France being Fed Cup champions, there will be no French women in round three at the Australian Open for the first time since 1985.
France seems to have been relying on Mladenovic, Cornet and Garcia for the last 10 years and are still waiting for the likes of Parry and Burel to make the grade. The thing that worries me most at the moment is Jo's knee problem and whether it will force her into retirement before she wants to retire. Of course she only decided at the last minute to go to Australia and then finished up meeting 2 players who give her problems. Pity she didn't draw Sloane Stephens.
France have been having kittens about their women for ages now. Waiting for Parry and Burel is just part of the regular 'shifting the buck' to the next cohort. And they've been moving down the line each time the latest cohort fails to really make the grade. They made a big hoo-hah about Oceane Dodin, and Fiona Ferro, for instance, as the new stars (who are a good 5 years older) but neither has really lived up to expectations (so far).
So they have a nice depth - about 22 female players in the top 500, at last count. But not really any new 'stars' as such.

France are still searching for successors to the recent era of Pierce, Tauziat, Mauresmo and Bartoli who altogether played in 12 Grand Slam singles finals between 1994 and 2013. That includes 3 players reaching the Wimbledon final and only Mary Pierce reaching the French final. Similarly you wonder what will happen with German tennis once Kerber retires because you can't see any likely successors. Italy also had a recent successful run with the likes of Schiavone, Errani, Vinci and Penetta. They are still hunting for successors.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Yes, exactly, that my point; it's not a question of Burel and Parry because every three years or so there is a different cohort that are hailed as the new spearhead of French women's tennis. And three years later it moves onto the next batch because that lot didn't really make it.

PaulM · Tennis legend

I remember the days we were lucky to get someone through into the second round of qualifying...

ROSAMUND · Futures level

As far as the Grand Slams are concerned excluding Wimbledon, more of our female players have managed to win a match at Australian Open in the 21st century than the French or US Open. Harriet Dart is the 9th with her win this year. The French is 3 and the US is 5. Wimbledon is 16.There are just 2 GB female players who have won at a match in the 21st century at all the Grand Slams and neither were born in GB.

Andy Parker · Strong Club Player

When I posted, I didn't want to get sidetracked into a debate about Jo Ko, but Rosamund, you are right to say that Jabeur is also a good player. I have followed her career over the years and have had the pleasure of seeing her play live a few times - she is a stand out icon for north African sporting women (mainly a middle class elite, but there still are a fair few) - in a society where it is predominantly believed that it is wrong for women to play sport and that they should not dare bare any flesh, including arms and legs, and should have their hair covered at all times, it is remarkable that she has not only managed to make it on to the professional tour, but has done well.

She has been a strong supporter of women's rights in Tunisia, and has done lots of charity work out there. All in all she is one of the most interesting players in the top 100, and I am thrilled for her to have had such a good run here.

As for Jo Ko, I don't think it is fair to speculate on how serious the knee injuries are - none of us really know if it is minor or serious/career threatening, and who knows if even Jo herself or her coaching and medical team are sure how restricting her problems will be in the future.

ROSAMUND · Futures level

Andy Parker wrote:
When I posted, I didn't want to get sidetracked into a debate about Jo Ko, but Rosamund, you are right to say that Jabeur is also a good player. I have followed her career over the years and have had the pleasure of seeing her play live a few times - she is a stand out icon for north African sporting women (mainly a middle class elite, but there still are a fair few) - in a society where it is predominantly believed that it is wrong for women to play sport and that they should not dare bare any flesh, including arms and legs, and should have their hair covered at all times, it is remarkable that she has not only managed to make it on to the professional tour, but has done well.

She has been a strong supporter of women's rights in Tunisia, and has done lots of charity work out there. All in all she is one of the most interesting players in the top 100, and I am thrilled for her to have had such a good run here.

As for Jo Ko, I don't think it is fair to speculate on how serious the knee injuries are - none of us really know if it is minor or serious/career threatening, and who knows if even Jo herself or her coaching and medical team are sure how restricting her problems will be in the future.

I didn't realise until her match with Jo that Ons Jabeur is married. She was married in 2015 but it is not mentioned in her entry in the WTA media guide.

ROSAMUND · Futures level

ROSAMUND wrote:
As far as the Grand Slams are concerned excluding Wimbledon, more of our female players have managed to win a match at Australian Open in the 21st century than the French or US Open. Harriet Dart is the 9th with her win this year. The French is 3 and the US is 5. Wimbledon is 16.There are just 2 GB female players who have won at a match in the 21st century at all the Grand Slams and neither were born in GB.

Following on my comment above the past 33 years haven't been that great. Back in 1987 Sara Gomer won a match at the French Championship and thus won a match at all the Grand Slams. She is the last British born female to achieve this. Since then Monique Javer in 1993, Clare Wood in 1994 , Elena Baltacha in 2011 and Johanna Konta in 2019 have managed this. None of the last 4 were born in Britain.

ROSAMUND · Futures level

Andy Parker wrote:
When I posted, I didn't want to get sidetracked into a debate about Jo Ko, but Rosamund, you are right to say that Jabeur is also a good player. I have followed her career over the years and have had the pleasure of seeing her play live a few times - she is a stand out icon for north African sporting women (mainly a middle class elite, but there still are a fair few) - in a society where it is predominantly believed that it is wrong for women to play sport and that they should not dare bare any flesh, including arms and legs, and should have their hair covered at all times, it is remarkable that she has not only managed to make it on to the professional tour, but has done well.

She has been a strong supporter of women's rights in Tunisia, and has done lots of charity work out there. All in all she is one of the most interesting players in the top 100, and I am thrilled for her to have had such a good run here.

As for Jo Ko, I don't think it is fair to speculate on how serious the knee injuries are - none of us really know if it is minor or serious/career threatening, and who knows if even Jo herself or her coaching and medical team are sure how restricting her problems will be in the future.

Since Jo has been suffering from a knee problem for the last 12 months, which has got worse in the last 6 months one would hope that the precise problem had been identified by now. Of course dealing with it is another matter. You can see videos of Jo in recent months in the gym trying to strengthen her knee which for a layman looks very hard exercise.

ROSAMUND · Futures level

Even if Jo had been fully fit such was her potential draw that I don't think this was the Grand Slam she was going to get to the later stages of. Potential opponents after Jabeur were Garcia, Wozniacki, Qiang Wang, Gauff, Barty or Kvitova. If you look back to 2016 when unseeded she reached the semi finals she basically had a draw made in heaven.. She beat the 8th seed Venus Williams in the 1st round( at the time Mike Dickson rated her chances of winning as nought out of five),Zheng, Allertova, Makarova(tough 3 setter) and Zhang who had beaten Halep in the 1st round. She lost to Kerber in the semi finals. Comparing 2016 with 2020 probably shows that the womens game is stronger now than then.

Status Quo · Intermediate Club Player

The historical perspective viewpoint that we've always (at least for a few generations) been bad, and therefore we should expect to be bad is a complete non-starter to me.
The point iosn't that we've been bad, but WHY have we been bad, especially compared to other similar countries?

Why can countries with fewer resources across any combinations of multiple metrics (population, infrastructure, money etc) like Czechia, Slovakia, Romania, Serbia, Croatia, Belgium, Ukraine, Switzerland etc continue to outperform us in terms of the number and general quality of their top players that they push through.
And that is nothing compared to the real comparison we should be making to other countries that are our more natural fit as a peer group: France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan Russai etc

The historical perspective always having been bad is like arguing that, well today I got 5/20 in my test, so I'm really pleased with that because I got 4/20 last week. Yeah, I mean, the pass mark is 15/20 and everyone else got 18/20, but, anyway, I'm satisfied.

Don't benchmark us against ourselves, benchmark us against the competitors whose performances we should have every expectation, over time, of equaling or surpassing.

Again, our current group of women are marked by their admirable commitment, determination and professionalism. Why given these qualities - they ostensibly have 'the right stuff' - even if perhaps they don't all possess unholy natural tennis ability and/or god-given true ball striking/natural 'weapons' that might preclude them from a world-beating legendary career, can they not at least match the individuals from other countries who similarly are just talented model professionals and yest who still routinely make the WR60-100 range, whilst ours generally don't?