Wimbledon

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

RE: Wimbledon

dodrade · Satellite level

I'm sure the AELTC and LTA came under heavy pressure from the government but surely they must have known the ATP/WTA wouldn't be on board with this? If there are no ranking points on offer will we end up with a de facto boycott like 1973? The prize money on its own might be enough for some players but what about the smaller grass court events?

stevemcqueen · Futures qualifying

A point re. the "if it makes a diffference" argument: We have imposed stiff sanctions on Russia. These sanctions will make no difference at all to Putin's cronies and the oligarchs, apart from maybe losing a yacht or two. They sensibly keep most of their assets in the west (don't get me started on this!). These guys won't have trouble paying for fuel, getting food or medicine or generally making ends meet. In a few week's or month's time when the sanctions start to bite properly, it will be the ordinary Russian family that pays the price. Many of these families will not have been particularly prosperous before this war started. The situation is diffficult and dangerous and most would agree that there is no single correct answer.

I try not to forget that I am privileged to have heated discussions re. gesture politics and tennis tournaments.

stevemcqueen · Futures qualifying

I think there is some small chance that Vlad will be able to claim a victory of some description and withdraw in time for Russia's big victory parade on May 9th. I hope so. Then everyone in the world will agree that everyone is welcome to play at Wimbledon.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Good summary of where we are at and what could happen

slate.com/culture/2022/04/wimbledon-russia-belarus-tennis-ban.html

Lambda · Futures level

dodrade wrote:

I'm sure the AELTC and LTA came under heavy pressure from the government but surely they must have known the ATP/WTA wouldn't be on board with this? If there are no ranking points on offer will we end up with a de facto boycott like 1973? The prize money on its own might be enough for some players but what about the smaller grass court events?

I'm glad someone has brought this up. The key words in the statement are that the decision has been made within government guidelines. I can't find those guidelines published anywhere, but recall when ministers met with sporting bodies and event organisers last month the government said that if Russian or Belarus athletes are to compete in UK events the sporting bodies/organisers had to get the assurance from the athletes, in the form of a written statement, that they are genuinely independent and neutral, receive no money from Putin, Russia or Belarus, and will not make any supportive comments Putin, Russia or Belarus. We've discussed this before and agreed it is not viable as it puts the players family in those countries at risk as well as themselves. I think this is what the AELTC are referring to when they say in their statement "We have very carefully considered the alternative measures that might be taken within the UK Government guidance but, given the high profile environment of The Championships, the importance of not allowing sport to be used to promote the Russian regime and our broader concerns for public and player (including family) safety, we do not believe it is viable to proceed on any other basis at The Championships"

So sporting bodies are put between a rock and a hard place. If the government want Russian and Belarus athletes to be genuinely independent and require them not to make supportive statements of Russia etc, then the government should be responsible for this and do this through the visa application process and/or place conditions on condition of entry for sports participation as part of the visa.

ETA: what are the AELTC and LTA to do, they can't hold events as ATP/WTA wish without being non-compliant with government guidelines?

-- Edited by Lambda on Thursday 21st of April 2022 06:28:06 AM

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

Lambda wrote:
dodrade wrote:

I'm sure the AELTC and LTA came under heavy pressure from the government but surely they must have known the ATP/WTA wouldn't be on board with this? If there are no ranking points on offer will we end up with a de facto boycott like 1973? The prize money on its own might be enough for some players but what about the smaller grass court events?

I'm glad someone has brought this up. The key words in the statement are that the decision has been made within government guidelines. I can't find those guidelines published anywhere, but recall when ministers met with sporting bodies and event organisers last month the government said that if Russian or Belarus athletes are to compete in UK events the sporting bodies/organisers had to get the assurance from the athletes, in the form of a written statement, that they are genuinely independent and neutral, receive no money from Putin, Russia or Belarus, and will not make any supportive comments Putin, Russia or Belarus. We've discussed this before and agreed it is not viable as it puts the players family in those countries at risk as well as themselves. I think this is what the AELTC are referring to when they say in their statement "We have very carefully considered the alternative measures that might be taken within the UK Government guidance but, given the high profile environment of The Championships, the importance of not allowing sport to be used to promote the Russian regime and our broader concerns for public and player (including family) safety, we do not believe it is viable to proceed on any other basis at The Championships"

So sporting bodies are put between a rock and a hard place. If the government want Russian and Belarus athletes to be genuinely independent and require them not to make supportive statements of Russia etc, then the government should be responsible for this and do this through the visa application process and/or place conditions on condition of entry for sports participation as part of the visa.

This seems a good summation, Lambda. And so if it was down To the Visa process, it would put Wimbledon in the same place as the AO where visas needed Covid vaccine or similar proof to allow the players to play, which the atp and wta seemed on board with. Maybe the error here for the lta and Wimbledon is that they havent consulted enough with the atp or wta (or appear to have done) before announcing their position?

the itf are quiet on the affair - it probably isnt their jurisdiction to comment but as the overall sport governing body globally, id like to get their view. They are British based arent they, so Id anticipate theyd be aligned more clearly with Wimbledon and what it has had to do.

emmsie69 · ATP level

So for all those of you that believe that individuals shouldn't be punished are you therefore against the sanctions in place against Russia? or is it just sportspeople that shouldn't be impacted. 12 million Ukranians have been displaced, poorer Russians are almost certainly feeling the affect of sanctions disproportionately but hey lets worry about a few tennis players.

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

emmsie69 wrote:
So for all those of you that believe that individuals shouldn't be punished are you therefore against the sanctions in place against Russia? or is it just sportspeople that shouldn't be impacted. 12 million Ukranians have been displaced, poorer Russians are almost certainly feeling the affect of sanctions disproportionately but hey lets worry about a few tennis players.

You are letting emotion override logic. Yes, the sanctions we have placed on Russia are hitting the Russian people hard as well as pushing up our energy prices further which has a knock on effect to every business in the country. A minor example is that the cost to produce a cucumber has doubled due to energy prices and many businesses will go under because of these rises, but it will help with the WEF's Great Reset plan, there is a far bigger picture here than people think.

Putin already has all the weapons he needs and Bojo knows these sanctions will not hinder Russia in the war but will make us poorer. 12 million Ukranians have NOT been displaced either, don't believe everything your see in the mainstream media. Their programmes are designed to programme you into believing what they want.

You seem to want to punish innocent tennis players as an act of spite which is wrong.

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

stevemcqueen wrote:
Mark1968, what are your thoughts regarding the exclusion of South Africa from International sport in the era of Apartheid?

Rather than editing my post I will admit to making an error bringing this into the conversation. I bought the South African issue up in the wrong context. There is a relevance there but it is a bit tenuous. What I had in mind but should have explained better is that the Wimby commitee have over extended their powers, even though I know they can ban anyone and probably will if you turn up in the wrong footwear etc. We live in an age of cancel culture where anyone anywhere who can ban / silence another person etc will. The committee are behaving like bully boys - we have an excuse to ban you, even though you are innocent of any wrong doing, so we will - because we can!

I now have the task of writing to every sponsor of Wimbledon asking them to withdraw their support. There are wars going on all over the world and you could make a case along the lines Wimby have used to ban players from several countries but they have not, they have even targeted players form Belarus which is even worse.

Regarding SA despite knowing someone who lived there in the 1950's who would paint a different picture to the one we understand here, I will not comment. Only for the reason that this is a tennis forum about current events and nothing else.

Lambda · Futures level

Mark1968 wrote:

stevemcqueen wrote:
I now have the task of writing to every sponsor of Wimbledon asking them to withdraw their support. There are wars going on all over the world and you could make a case along the lines Wimby have used to ban players from several countries but they have not, they have even targeted players form Belarus which is even worse.

The alternative under the two options allowed by the government is to put Russian and Belarus players and their families in danger by making them give written assurances that they are not supportive of the war. Would you rather have that? With the high profile nature of Wimbledon, those declarations would be very well publicised. For those that think this decision is wrong, their ire should be directed at the government.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Mark1968 wrote:
emmsie69 wrote:
So for all those of you that believe that individuals shouldn't be punished are you therefore against the sanctions in place against Russia? or is it just sportspeople that shouldn't be impacted. 12 million Ukranians have been displaced, poorer Russians are almost certainly feeling the affect of sanctions disproportionately but hey lets worry about a few tennis players.
You are letting emotion override logic. Yes, the sanctions we have placed on Russia are hitting the Russian people hard as well as pushing up our energy prices further which has a knock on effect to every business in the country. A minor example is that the cost to produce a cucumber has doubled due to energy prices and many businesses will go under because of these rises, but it will help with the WEF's Great Reset plan, there is a far bigger picture here than people think.
Putin already has all the weapons he needs and Bojo knows these sanctions will not hinder Russia in the war but will make us poorer. 12 million Ukranians have NOT been displaced either, don't believe everything your see in the mainstream media. Their programmes are designed to programme you into believing what they want.
You seem to want to punish innocent tennis players as an act of spite which is wrong.

So, if 12 million have not been displaced and we shouldn't believe everything we read, maybe MORE have been displaced? Maybe 22 million ?

And the punishing innocent South African sportspeople for their country's racist regime (as the world did) is very relevant and you can't simply not discuss it because this forum is about tennis - it's directly relevant to the conversation

However, I still live in HappyLand and hope the war is over in by July and everyone can play tennis and smile.....

emmsie69 · ATP level

Even if it's over by July, I'm not sure sanctions will be lifted. Russia will have annexed more of Ukraine which isn't going to be an acceptable conclusion for the West.

christ · Futures qualifying

Mark1968 wrote:
... Bojo knows these sanctions will not hinder Russia in the war but will make us poorer.

If Mr Johnson knows that his policies are deliberately - and ineffectively - harming this country, why do you think he is doing what he is doing?

Mark1968 wrote:
12 million Ukranians have NOT been displaced either, don't believe everything your see in the mainstream media.

You could go the whole hog and hit us with "lamestream media". How many Ukrainians have beed displaced according to your direct pipeline to the truth? But instead of complaining about the numbers (does it really matter whether it is 1 million, 12 million or 100 million?) you need to address the fact that Russia is the unprovoked aggressor in this conflict, and is causing untold misery.

Mark1968 wrote:
Their programmes are designed to programme you into believing what they want.

Seriously? "Their programmes"? I presume that "what they want" is driven by the illuminati or some such in your "logical, non-emotional" view of the world. Is it your view that Russia is engaged in a special military operation to free ethnic Russians from the nazi oppressors under which they suffer in Ukraine?

Mark1968 wrote:
You seem to want to punish innocent tennis players as an act of spite which is wrong.

I concede that "punishing innocent (Russian and Belorussian, therefore de facto ambassadors for their countries in the world) tennis players" may be ineffective. But what would you suggest the world do to express their discomfort at what Russia is doing? Strongly worded letters to Russia and their sponsors?

By the way - seeing as you have a thing for accurate numbers - how many innocent tennis players are harmed by this "act of spite"? (... and how many of these are not millionaires?)

-- Edited by christ on Thursday 21st of April 2022 08:26:20 AM

Mark1968 · Intermediate Club Player

In reply to Lambda: I have not read or heard that our Government would ask for the written assurances that you state. If this is true then you are correct in what you say. These players are playing around the world flagless with no problems or letter writing so the same should happen here. I cannot comment further until I have found for sure that our Government have required this from the players. The players should be allowed to play whether they support the war or not, you cannot cancel people because of their political beliefs, that would be an extreme form of discrimination and totally unacceptable.

In reply to Coup Droit: No, LESS than 12 million have been displaced and no, I am not going to discuss SA here. I too hope that the conflict is over ASAP.

In reply to emmsie69: You are right, I believe many of these sanctions will be here for the longer term if not for good, as there is a lot more at play here than the conflict. Something else I am not going to discuss on a tennis forum.

Let's end cancel culture and victimising people because they were born in the wrong country or have the wrong opinion and let sport continue and let the hopeless politicians deal with the rest.