Brexit

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Brexit

paulisi · Tennis legend

Not true - all parties are split and it was obvious that some individuals would not be happy with a compromise.
Both have agendas - Boris wants the top job and Davis is being undermined by top government officials and would have been out of a job shortly anyway.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Oh I agree totally that all parties are split, with the possible exception of the Lib Dems who are too small to split. Labour have been very clever in simply commenting as little as possible on Brexit so as to hide their own problems. Their approach (at shadow cabinet level, at least) is to keep their mouths shut and let the Tories dig their own grave, but they have exactly the same ideological divide as the Tories.

Jajon · Strong Club Player

Can anyone say why leaving the EU can still be considered a good thing/something we need to follow through without saying will of the people?? Genuinely damaging us in pretty much every way possible. I find it infuriating that its two years after the vote and yet I still dont know a single credible reason for leaving?

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

I am certainly one person who would be in favour of a 2nd vote. To use an analogy, I would say this.

In a company, the bosses ask if the employees want to do a parachute jump for charity. They vote "YES". A month later the bosses come back and say "It's all booked. On the day of the jump, the forecast is terrible, we will be jumping through clouds, we won't know if we are over water or dry land, the parachutes all have holes in and the strings are badly strayed. But we have to do it anyway because that is what you voted for."

So much water has gone under the bridge over the last two years, people's understanding of the complexity, timescale and consequences has changed dramatically even though nobody knows for sure what will happen. But given the change in the landscape, I certainly believe a 2nd vote would be justified. Even court cases that lead to criminal convictions can be retried or appealed "if new evidence has come to light". I certainly think that what we have all learned over the last two years can be deemed as new evidence and of course, once we know the terms of the final deal that is on the table, this argument would be even more valid.

If with all this new evidence/knowledge, the public still vote to leave, then so be it, but at least a second vote would be based on a much better informed public than the first one.

indiana · Tennis legend

If only the Remain campaign hadn't been such a ******* shambles and you know had maybe tried mentioning many of the positives of EU membership rather than been so relentlessly negative and Armageddon ( even if there was indeed much to be negative about, it went OTT one-way, at times seemed lecturing and some railed against that ).

That against a generally much better Leave campaign, which was also at times a bit economical with the facts.

Oh and if Jeremy had thought to encourage more of the young to register and vote ( which would probably have been disproportionately for Remain ) rather than save that for the General Election.

I'd love a second referendum, which a total shambles might just help towards. Though I fear such hopes may still be in vain.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Yes, Indy. Worst campaign I have ever seen. I bitterly resent Cameron's handling of it.

SuperT · Futures qualifying

I totally agree and blame Cameron for so many of our current woes. Firstly we should never have had a referendum. He only called it because he was scared UKIP was pinching Tory voters, and then having done so, just arrogantly assumed he would win so didn't bother doing presenting any facts to the electorate. If people had understood how complex it would be, how long it would take, how much it would cost they might have voted differently. I don't remember anyone even mentioning issues such as the Irish border. I also blame Corbyn who was allegedly supporting Remain but didn't bother going to out to the labour heartlands and pointing out the many developments which had been provided thanks to EU cash. And now we have Johnson using the mess we're in to try and further his own political ends. I really find it hard to see any hope for the future.

Strongbow · All-time great

Why not just keep holding them till you get the result you want wink

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Even football doesn't want to come home but thinks it'll stay in the EU........ :::(((

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

So the famous, or already infamous, White Paper is out.

The Customs Union is being replaced by a Facilitated Customs Arrangement where we have to follow the Common Rule Book (i.e. EU Rules)
The Single Market is being replaced by a Tariff Free Trade agreement for Goods etc. and no customs checks will be required meaning continued frictionless trade.
Freedom of Movement will cease and be replaced by Visa Free travel.

Please tell me. What exactly is changing here ? And if the answer is "not a lot", then why the hell don't we just stay in.

indiana · Tennis legend

Totally disagree with them but you can see why the Brexiteers were a bit miffed. Not exactly their dream break free nor what very many voted for.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
Totally disagree with them but you can see why the Brexiteers were a bit miffed. Not exactly their dream break free nor what very many voted for.

And this is the starting position for negotiations. We haven't let the EU water down the proposal yet.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

indiana wrote:
Totally disagree with them but you can see why the Brexiteers were a bit miffed. Not exactly their dream break free nor what very many voted for.

Yes but we have no idea what the brexiteer public wanted anyway. As they weren't asked.

I.e. nearly 52% voted to leave. But they were told that we would keep free market access for trade as europe needed us for their exports . (!)

And that business therefore with the eu would be unaffected.

Given that the soft/ hard brexit question was not asked at the polling station, it is obvious that some/a reasonable chunk of leavers were voting for a soft brexit. So it must be less than 50% who voted for a hard brexit.

indiana · Tennis legend

Fair points, CD.

Many were probably tempted by the supposed have your cake and it eat it option.