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Post Info TOPIC: Brexit
Brexit Voting [53 vote(s)]

Voted Leave - Would Still Vote Leave
18.9%
Voted Leave - Would Now Vote Remain
1.9%
Voted Remain - Would Still Vote Remain
67.9%
Voted Remain - Would Now Vote Leave
0.0%
Didn't Vote - Would Now Vote Leave
0.0%
Didn't Vote - Would Now Vote Remain
7.5%
Other
3.8%


Tennis legend

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Brexit


I don't think it's necessarily sad. I think there are plenty of other things that can represent your country and you can feel proud of that. Put up flags with the Queen's face on it, maybe. (For the jubilee - probably not applicable for everything ). Or with a national emblem - what about a red rose, a yellow daffodil, a thistle, and whatever the Northern Irish want ?
But, as said, a lot of countries feel that national flags are nationalistic, too easily associated with wars, etc, it's not just the UK.

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Satellite level

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All this "I love my country" stuff is great, but what is "my country" and where does it stop? For someone that was born and dwells in England, should "my country" include Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? Even if they have never been visited? What about Gibraltar? Diego Garcia? Cornwall? Cumbria? (Please note that I would be unable to play football for any of the above other than England) What is it about "my country" that is loved? The scenery? The currency? The history? The Queen? The weather? The "culture"? The cricket team? Does the "my country" that is loved include parliament and the politicians? Meghan Markle? Coastal erosion? Imperialism? The Peerage?

I find it absolutely fascinating that there is a large number of Scots that desire independence from the UK, but also wish to remain in the EU. I cannot begin to fathom this position, but I accept that it exists. I also find it fascinating that there are first (and second and other numbers) generation immigrants that are fanatically British, and that there are other British folk that are desperately trying to change Britain for one reason and another (including to accommodate immigrants, and their cultures & religions).

If one "loves" ones country, how does one feel about someone else's country? For some (too many) people "love" of ones country is best shown through hatred/ disdain/ disregard for foreign people/ things: hence the reason for things like the EDL and Nigel Farage.

In my view patriotism and xenophobia are two sides of the same coin, but somehow we praise one and pillory the other.

(I'm English, and proud to be so, but not really quite sure why or what it means: if I was offered citizenship of any other country in the world - including Scotland - I would decline, but I don't really know why. But the flag that I would fly as the flag of my country is the Union Jack)

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Tennis legend

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christ wrote:

All this "I love my country" stuff is great, but what is "my country" and where does it stop? For someone that was born and dwells in England, should "my country" include Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? Even if they have never been visited? What about Gibraltar? Diego Garcia? Cornwall? Cumbria? (Please note that I would be unable to play football for any of the above other than England) What is it about "my country" that is loved? The scenery? The currency? The history? The Queen? The weather? The "culture"? The cricket team? Does the "my country" that is loved include parliament and the politicians? Meghan Markle? Coastal erosion? Imperialism? The Peerage?

I find it absolutely fascinating that there is a large number of Scots that desire independence from the UK, but also wish to remain in the EU. I cannot begin to fathom this position, but I accept that it exists. I also find it fascinating that there are first (and second and other numbers) generation immigrants that are fanatically British, and that there are other British folk that are desperately trying to change Britain for one reason and another (including to accommodate immigrants, and threir cultures & religions).

If one "loves" ones country, how does one feel about someone else's country? For some (too many) people "love" of ones country is best shown through hatred/ disdain/ disregard for foreign people/ things: hence the reason for things like the EDL and Nigel Farage.

In my view patriotism and xenophobia are two sides of the same coin, but somehow we praise one and pillory the other.

(I'm English, and proud to be so, but not really quite sure why or what it means: if I was offered citizenship of any other country in the world - including Scotland - I would decline, but I don't really know why. But the flag that I would fly as the flag of my country is the Union Jack)


 Those are all really interesting points and perspectives. What do we love about our country and what is my country? And isnt that interesting, it is really quite nebulous to describe and yet clear as can be in my head - yet difficult to articulate. 

For me, it is probably down to culture and the feel for the place - the music, the sport (so often not English or British, in football at least, but built around an English framework),  the theatre, the food (which is usually not British or English but what we have over here)  , the democracy (broken as it sometimes is), the people (and yet so many of them annoy me at many times!), the architecture, the greenery, the coastline, the comedy, the openness to encourage different views and ways of life, to understand people with different needs (and yet so often we dont and we hate ,in the modern vernacular), the TV and the Films, the supermarkets 

And yet, many countries have these things and better and when we go to somewhere different on holiday, we often sigh and think why cant the UK be like this. 

The answer is , for me, I dont know - and yet I do know, somewhere deep down. But cant express it!! 

 



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Challenger qualifying

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christ wrote:

All this "I love my country" stuff is great, but what is "my country" and where does it stop? For someone that was born and dwells in England, should "my country" include Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland? Even if they have never been visited? What about Gibraltar? Diego Garcia? Cornwall? Cumbria? (Please note that I would be unable to play football for any of the above other than England) What is it about "my country" that is loved? The scenery? The currency? The history? The Queen? The weather? The "culture"? The cricket team? Does the "my country" that is loved include parliament and the politicians? Meghan Markle? Coastal erosion? Imperialism? The Peerage?

I find it absolutely fascinating that there is a large number of Scots that desire independence from the UK, but also wish to remain in the EU. I cannot begin to fathom this position, but I accept that it exists. I also find it fascinating that there are first (and second and other numbers) generation immigrants that are fanatically British, and that there are other British folk that are desperately trying to change Britain for one reason and another (including to accommodate immigrants, and their cultures & religions).

If one "loves" ones country, how does one feel about someone else's country? For some (too many) people "love" of ones country is best shown through hatred/ disdain/ disregard for foreign people/ things: hence the reason for things like the EDL and Nigel Farage.

In my view patriotism and xenophobia are two sides of the same coin, but somehow we praise one and pillory the other.

(I'm English, and proud to be so, but not really quite sure why or what it means: if I was offered citizenship of any other country in the world - including Scotland - I would decline, but I don't really know why. But the flag that I would fly as the flag of my country is the Union Jack)


Good points christ and I guess the easy answer is that it will mean something different to everybody.  We are all nationalistic to a degree....we all follow GB tennis for example, usually supporting the Brit by default (unless we have reason not to)  For me I think I like the country for many of the reasons others claim it not to be.  I still find it extraordinary how contemptuous some are about our country but to me she bears no resemblance to what they make her out to be.



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Tennis legend

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A tale of two Daniels.



The first is a wine dealer, whose posts I have highlighted before. In this thread he has itemised in detail the additional costs - both financial and otherwise - that Brexit has created for his company. I am sure these are typical costs for so many import/export companies and although the big players may be able to absorb these costs, the impact is much tougher on SMEs and they are forced to pass these costs on to the customer.

We should also remember that these costs are despite the fact that the UK has a 'free' trade agreement with the EU and so this has nothing to do with tariffs.

https://twitter.com/DanielLambert29/status/1532991072158220288

Imagine if the UK decides to unilaterally withdraw from the NIP and the EU responds by applying tariffs. The situation would be far worse.



The second is our old friend Daniel Hannan, such a prime mover in the Leave campaign, who seems to be saying even now that we should have stayed in the Single Market.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/04/should-have-stayed-single-market-rejoining-now-would-madness/

This is sadly behind a firewall so I can't read all of it. Strangely enough he is saying that rejoin the SM would be madness, but as I am not prepared to give them my credit card details, I can't read the section where he explains his reasoning.



With regard to being in the EFTA (Single Market), one aspect of membership that I have learned about this week is that those countries are still entitled to do their own bilateral free trade deals with other 3rd countries. So the argument that being in the SM would stop us from doing our own trade deals is incorrect.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2016/580918/EPRS_BRI(2016)580918_EN.pdf

"Because EFTA is a free trade area not requiring the harmonisation of member countries' external trade policies, EFTA members are free to decide their own trade policies towards third countries."

From paragraph 3 of the above.



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It is indeed an interesting article Bob. You can access it for free via the archive site. Hopefully this link works (otherwise copy and paste www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/04/should-have-stayed-single-market-rejoining-now-would-madness/
into the search)


archive.ph/dJzLL

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Tennis legend

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Shhh wrote:

It is indeed an interesting article Bob. You can access it for free via the archive site. Hopefully this link works (otherwise copy and paste www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/06/04/should-have-stayed-single-market-rejoining-now-would-madness/
into the search)


archive.ph/dJzLL


Many thanks for the link and it is definitely an interesting read.  It has reminded me that I shouldn't judge people purely on selected soundbites.  He certainly has an interesting perception of what has happened politically over the last few years but I am sure it won't surprise you to hear that I have differing opinions from him in many regards.

His analysis of how we have got to where we are has many valid points, but I don't understand his argument about not being able to roll back on some of that.  He wrote:

"During the withdrawal talks, Britain paid a steep price for total regulatory freedom. To have made that payment but now not to use the freedom would be senseless."

But if that regulatory freedom proves to have a significant negative effect our trading relationship with our most important partner, why should we persist on that road ?  Just because bridges have been burnt, doesn't mean that we can't try to rebuild them. Surely offering to rejoin EFTA would be a huge step forward in that rebuilding process.

I should stress that my argument here is not that we should join EFTA - that is a different debate - but that to rule it out completely, because of what has already happened, would be wrong. Surely it should at least remain as an option open for debate.

His argument seems to be that we have dug ourselves into a hole, but given how far we've dug, we have to just keep digging.  This is where I profoundly disagree with him. Sometimes, you have to admit that a mistake has been made and you have to cut your losses.

I also have to say that I laughed at this bit:

We couldnt ask for a better critic than Ellwood, a Johnson loyalist told me on Friday. Other MPs see him as long-winded, over-ambitious and thick never a great combination

Whether people agree with Tobias Ellwood's politics or not, I am not sure that 'thick' would be a valid adjective to describe his personality. In fact, if someone were to ask me to name some 'thick' Tory MPs, there are plenty of other candidates that would come well ahead of him in that list (I'm thinking Dorries/Francois/Bridgen) and it would not surprise me in the least if it was one of those candidates that made the comment.

To summarise, he seems to be saying that we have torn up the old rule book but nobody has bothered to right a new one yet.  Which is why for me, it is illogical to rule out any options. The debate on what type of Brexit would be best for the UK should still be ongoing.



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Tennis legend

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When even the Daily Express starts coming up with headlines like this, you know that things aren't going well.

"Brexit NOT done as UK faces £1.4tn headache for DECADES"

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1623246/brexit-news-Jacob-Rees-mogg-poisoned-chalice-brexit-not-done

My favourite passage in the article is this.

"The Brexit Opportunities Minister last month revealed Britons had handed the Government 2,000 ideas on how to make the most of the UKs withdrawal from the EU. He published the top nine most interesting proposals, including scrapping regulations on vacuum cleaners, .... "

If that is one of the Top 9 most interesting out of 2000, I shudder to think what the more boring ideas are biggrinbiggrinbiggrin



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You've got to laugh - at least the Express is good for something

My favourite line was:

[they came up with 2,000 ideas and published nine]........."the other 1,991 proposals were not put into the public domain not because theyre not interesting but because our hands are tied and they are not possible".

So the Rees-Mogg's thinktank came up with 1,991 proposals that were not possible - good job, guys !!!! biggrinno



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I just read the article myself and what I read is a former Brexit MEP unhappy that Brexit was not hard enough and he/she therefore thinks the UK is going to hell in a hand cart.

Chip paper basically. Meanwhile.......


London-headquartered UK sustainable energy company Octopus Energy has made its first wind farm investment in Germany. It will build Gaishecke near Frankfurt.

British commercial vehicle production rose year-on-year by 27.6% in April 2022 in the best performing April since 2016. During April this year, the UK manufactured 7,879 commercial vehicles, of which 4,728 were exported.

WORLD FIRST! Following a £12m investment, Belfast's Artemis Technologies has launched the worlds first commercially viable 100% electric foiling workboat range. The firm is developing a range of green transport solutions which is set to create more than 1,000 jobs.

Historic British medical equipment manufacturer Smith+Nephew, founded in 1856, is set to build a new £80 million production and R&D facility in Melton, near Hull. "This major investment demonstrates our commitment to the UK."

Builders merchant Selco set to create 1,000 jobs in expansion plans.

etc etc etc wink



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Sorry, Shhh, I love your upbeat look but there are always new investments and good news - of course certain companies are expanding and doing well. Even in the severest recessions, certain companies did well.

The point is whether there is more good news than bad news. And that, I'm afraid, is not so (IMO).

Just as a for instance:

"Based on figures from the OECD, UK GDP grew by 14.3% between Q2 2016 and Q3 2021. This is a smaller growth rate than four of the EUs largest economies. During the same period, Germany had the highest indexed growth rate at 32.2%, followed by Spain (25.6%), France (23%) and Italy (16.3%).

The UK-based Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR) states that the long-term impact of Brexit will be worse for the UK economy than Covid-19. The OBR estimates that Brexit will reduce the UKs potential GDP by 4% and the pandemic by a further 2%."

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There are always positive and negative stories. Neither approach is perfect, but as CD says, you have to weigh up the overall pros and cons. Some research by the Centre for European Reform shows that as a result of Brexit:

GDP down by 5.2 per cent
Investment 13.7 per cent lower
Goods trade reduced by 13.6 per cent

But services are UP by almost 8%

twitter.com/CER_EU/status/1534966243454767114

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Tennis legend

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Here is a very interesting Brexit positive

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/ulsterbusiness/news/belfast-harbour-bounces-back-to-34m-profit-and-says-trading-aided-by-ni-protocol-41769929.html


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Yes, absolutely, Bob, it's great

But Northern Ireland, of course, is living the dream - in the free market for goods - no checks, no new administrative requirements, complete barrier-free trading with the rest of the EU ...... just imagine....

It's no wonder they're extremely worried about Boris' threats to breach the protocol

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Macron is dressed exclusively by an eBay seller in Hull. Which, seeing as the French presidency costs about 50% more than the UK monarchy, is yet another Brexit benefit?  wink



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