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Jaggy1876


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Indyref2 inevitable
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After the disgraceful behaviour of the Tories this week in Westminster and the bufoonery of Mundell and others in Scotland, it appears indyref2 will be coming sooner rather than later. Coupled with the disaster of broken promises and the Brexit carry on where over 60% of Scots voted to remain, and the Tories in Scotlands obsession with their policy up here almost exclusively based on independance (to mask their aggressive policies), it appears there is little choice north of the border. Im seeing a 2020/21 date being muted already.

I know a number of No voters who are changing their minds, it will only take about 1/7 of the No voters to change for this to be successful. What are the thoughts of both Scots on here and Brits. And will anyone here be changing?

Please note, this is not an endorsement of the SNP, its a discussion on independance, something the Tories in Scotland fail to realise, I myself did not vote SNP in the last election, but am pro independence and Remain.



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indiana


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NO, if unfortunately this comes round again I see practically zero chance that I will change.

Not that the Tories are exactly helping things just now but there will no doubt remain easily enough reasons for me to still consider Better Together or at the very least Who Knows Apart and I have no wish to find out. And just fundamentally I think I will continue to prefer to be part of the UK.



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Etienne


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I don't see the SNP running another referendum unless the polls are a lot more positive than they are at present. They could reasonably argue that the Brexit result and the farcical hash that the government are making of the negotiations could justify another referendum so soon after the last one but if they don't win this time, then that surely is it for a generation.


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Coup Droit


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But as Scotland would not qualify on its own to be an independent member of the EU, why should pro-Remainers vote for independence?

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paulisi


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The SNP will not risk a second referendum because if they lose, they will be destroyed as a party. It will be political suicide unless there is a huge swing in opinion.

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steven


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Jaggy, if you think the Tories are obsessed with (preventing) independence, what on earth does that make the SNP, who figuratively seem to spend all day every day fiddling about it while Scotland burns. Their stunt at Westminster today is just the lowest point so far in their obsession with manufacturing fake grievance instead of working constructively for the people they claim to represent.

Having said that, you'll get no argument from me about the pointlessness of Brexit sh*t wing of the Conservative party, and their enabler-in-chief the PM.

I can understand the argument about people being forced into Brexit against their will (though that applies to millions of us in England too) and Nicola, when she's not just using it for Indy purposes, has been known to make some pretty compelling arguments for Remain, but nearly all of those arguments can be used to make an even stronger case against Indy than they make against Brexit.

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indiana


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One thing Nicola Sturgeon is is opportunist to her fingertips and will seek to exploit situations, sometimes better than other times.

That in itself is not a criticism. She clearly fundamentally believes in independence and it is not unreasonable to expect her to look to play up opportunities that may seem to arise to help towards that end. What does concern me is combining ( or rather often not combining ) that with the good governance of Scotland in the current system, from which she and the SNP at times are easily distracted by the ongoing aim of the holy grail of independence, which still much of the country wishes no part of.



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Jaggy1876


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steven wrote:

Jaggy, if you think the Tories are obsessed with (preventing) independence, what on earth does that make the SNP, who figuratively seem to spend all day every day fiddling about it while Scotland burns. Their stunt at Westminster today is just the lowest point so far in their obsession with manufacturing fake grievance instead of working constructively for the people they claim to represent.

Having said that, you'll get no argument from me about the pointlessness of Brexit sh*t wing of the Conservative party, and their enabler-in-chief the PM.

I can understand the argument about people being forced into Brexit against their will (though that applies to millions of us in England too) and Nicola, when she's not just using it for Indy purposes, has been known to make some pretty compelling arguments for Remain, but nearly all of those arguments can be used to make an even stronger case against Indy than they make against Brexit.

 Thats not actually true your first part Steven. I appreciate you dont probably see footage and reports of the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh, but its the Scottish Tories that mention the independence word more than any other party. There is a video on twitter that shows how many times they mention it. Policy wise the Tories up here have nothing. Their entire election campaign was based on anti-independance propaganda rather than policy, there is a reason they emphasise the Unionist part of their party name. They appealed to a large group of troglodyte Union Jack no surrender types bordering on some of those found at Tommy Robinson marches this week (for a comparison). The SNP on the other hand barely mentioned independance and if they did it was more often than not Brexit related. 

Its also fair to say that had Brexit not happened, this discussion probably wouldnt be taking place just now. If you take away over 55s vote on both its both a remain and Yes result as well, something I find very interesting for the future. Room for optimism in that regard.



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indiana


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Yes the SNP at one point at least realised going on overmuch about independence in a country largely tired of polls and campaigns as opposed to day to day government was not doing them much good politically. And the Tories realised mentioning independence and the union a lot was politically good for them in Scotland, so how dare they do so. It's just nae fair 

And they can claim well, it was them others that started it !



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flamingowings


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I cannot engage with politics at the moment. I am just so tired of it. Starting with the Indyref, media etc have just become so fake and negative.

Why I voted no was because there was no answer regarding the oil. Now that we are truly in a slump /downward spiral / natural recourse coming to an end how exactly would an independent Scotland survive?

Ultimately I am Scottish and European. I really have no desire to be out of the EU.

Also, I have lost a lot of faith in the SNP.

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Bob in Spain


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Support for Scottish Independence now at highest level ever.

twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1316333428585893888

I wonder why.

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Bob in Spain


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Bob in Spain wrote:

Support for Scottish Independence now at highest level ever.

twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1316333428585893888

I wonder why.

From the same poll but separated by age group

https://twitter.com/rosscolquhoun/status/1316350169324154882

 

 



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indiana


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Yes, I never thought I would entertain it and I hardly followed the original referendum debate because fundamentally I knew my answer as I had always been totally unionist for quite a number of reasons.

Nowadays I wonder ...

 

Edit: I look back at my previous posts in this thread. I sure have shifted or rather been shifted. Before I would question folk again and again as to "why?" - my cohort of friends has more nationalist tendencies. If and when IndyRef2 comes along, unless quite a number of things change, I may be more seeking fundamental "why not?"s.



-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 14th of October 2020 02:55:55 PM

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