Property developers and the death of non league football clubs

JonH · All-time great

RE: Property developers and the death of non league football clubs

Oakland2002 · All-time great

It shouldnt be a problem with it being acrylic unless there is a specific quality problem with the type or surface itself, Sutton are riding high on plastic in the Conference! Going plastic gives the club and local community so many more options in terms of use of their faculty during the week. Fiscally it was a no brainier for Sutton.

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Wednesday 28th of March 2018 08:50:45 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

Guess it is for each level to make its rules.

Although they have greatly improved over the years I still don't think artificial pitches should be used at top levels.

I really dislike that they are allowed in the Scottish Premiership and that Hamilton and Kilmarnock have them, and theirs certainly still clearly at times behave differently to grass and take some getting used to.

So fair enough, not allowed in the English Premier and Football League. And the National League has that choice to make.

Points taken about local community use. Clubs then must decide for themselves whether they want to restrict the level they will be allowed to compete at.

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 28th of March 2018 09:53:58 PM

Oakland2002 · All-time great

As things stand if Sutton get promoted and refuse to rip up their 3G pitch they get relegated and fined. The EPL may vote to allow acrylic pitches in the future.

Personally I prefer grass but I think the challenge of staying financially viable is so great in non league football needs must, the way forward for many clubs is to become a community hub, a durable versatile multi use pitch is often the key.

JonH · All-time great

Oakland2002 wrote:
As things stand if Sutton get promoted and refuse to rip up their 3G pitch they get relegated and fined. The EPL may vote to allow acrylic pitches in the future.

Personally I prefer grass but I think the challenge of staying financially viable is so great in non league football needs must, the way forward for many clubs is to become a community hub, a durable versatile multi use pitch is often the key.

I'm sure that was the logic of harrogate going that way as well. The pitch is now used every week night and day. And Harrogate's brand of football has become much more to feet and possession based as well, which is good to see, although last night it was possession going nowhere to be honest!

Oakland2002 · All-time great

indiana wrote:

Although they have greatly improved over the years I still don't think artificial pitches should be used at top levels.

I really dislike that they are allowed in the Scottish Premiership and that Hamilton and Kilmarnock have them, and theirs certainly still clearly at times behave differently to grass and take some getting used to.

I don't think Hamilton and Kilmarnock is top level football from an attendance perspective they have exactly the same problems as non league football has in England.

Hamiltons average home attendance is not dissimilar to Hamlets (step3) on a good day at champion Hill ie 2350 ish! Kilmanock do better but only substantially better (than step 3) Hereford when the big city boys come to town Against the Motherwells, Ross Counties and even Edinburgh they struggle to get 4K! Hereford get close to that for the likes of a Telford and Fleetwood!

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Thursday 29th of March 2018 05:40:07 AM

indiana · Tennis legend

Ah, I was thinking as I wrote that that someone might comment on my saying "top levels" and then talking about the Scottish Premiership and Hamilton and Kilmarnock and nearly added a preemptive comment.

There is an argument re the number of top level Scottish clubs there are and how financially viable most are but they are playing in the top league in Scottish football and well, I don't like it so there. Me and Brendan Rodgers.

As St Mirren romp away with the Championship ( even we surely can't screw up now, we could probably declare ) we should be leaving such pitches behind and playing on pleasant green pastures.

paulisi · Tennis legend

Conference allow plastic pitches, football league don't.
Ironically if Sutton win the league and refuse to switch to grass, they would get relegated to Conf S

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Some good news this morning in that Worcester City have confirmed that they have reached agreement with Bromsgrove Sporting to continue to share their ground for another season so hopefully more step 5 football for the City.

We just wait with baited breath for 11:30 the pitch inspection down at Tooting, hoping for a bumper good Friday crowd for Hamlet v Dorking Wanders. Hopefully Tooting chicken jerky will have to substitute for my Thai Green Curry a shame but thanks to T n M. At home on a holiday one would be hoping for a gate north of 2500 at Champion Hill with an atmosphere somewhere between that of a village fete and a football match. So sad when there is all to play for, Billericay Town chasing us down but seething with mutinous angst a product of surreal born again leadership. As the rich tapestry of the seasons end plays out our ground sits empty, busy doing nothing intentionally going to seed as the developers put up the barricades hoping the political will we fade with the sands of time.

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Yesterday was fans day at Dulwich Hamlet (well Tooting and Mitchum) the weather was a disaster but again the atmosphere fantastic. The pitch resemble a swamp and with typhoon still ripping round our ears the game was called off after about 18 minutes, 1000 plus turned up including the mayor of London, who is not tall but gave a rousing speech and actually knew who a couple of the players were.
Hamlet will try again on Tuesday.

Remarkably a couple of Worcester City fans were there and we (I) were able to relive the 1978 trip to the 2nd Rnd FA Cup tie to Newport County, we had our own football special layed on by British Rail! A dire 0-0 game in front of 7,000 was topped by a crowd of over 10,000 at the Lane for the replay with City coming off the wrong end of a 2-1 thriller! I was a 13 year old comp kid at the time it was incredibly exciting affordable, allowed a bit of independence and kept me and my friends out of trouble on a Saturday afternoon.

Yesterday it was free for under 13s and various other concessions on offer. What is there now for a similar kid in a rural town, or Peckham Brixton and Camberwell for that matter X box?

JonH · All-time great

JonH wrote:
Oakland2002 wrote:
As things stand if Sutton get promoted and refuse to rip up their 3G pitch they get relegated and fined. The EPL may vote to allow acrylic pitches in the future.

Personally I prefer grass but I think the challenge of staying financially viable is so great in non league football needs must, the way forward for many clubs is to become a community hub, a durable versatile multi use pitch is often the key.
I'm sure that was the logic of harrogate going that way as well. The pitch is now used every week night and day. And Harrogate's brand of football has become much more to feet and possession based as well, which is good to see, although last night it was possession going nowhere to be honest!

Harrogate won 5-1 at home to Blyth on Monday and Salford where called off due to rain. So they are now 3 points ahead of Harrogate and both have 5 games remaining , 2 each at home and 3 away. Brackley lost so are 11 points off Salford with 7 matches left, but it feels like it is now a two horse race between Town and Salford. Should be an interesting last few weeks with only 1 getting direct promotion. Town play both York City and Bradford PA in their fixtures , away, so include two closest rivals in their list of remaining fixtures.

-- Edited by JonH on Tuesday 3rd of April 2018 06:04:59 AM

Oakland2002 · All-time great

I saw that thumping result and thought of you. Hamlets fixture list sank.

I did manage to see Greenwich Borough play East Grinstead, Boro chasing automatic promotion to the Bostick Premier. I enjoyed cracking game of step 4 football, some very good athletes on the pitch with great mobility, footwork, coordination and stamina on show, it would be very interesting to see how many of our top 10 British Tennis players could get close to them on basic physiological indices.

Bradley Prichard captained Borough now 32 ex Charlton (went there as an analyst and won a contract), hes still fit as a butchers dog. Enjoyed a great game of football with Borough easy winners 3-1, I had change from twenty quid after paying entrance fee and going crazy having a pint of Guinness which I sipped watching the game in the stand, a pint of Diet Coke, a bag of dry roasted nuts and a cup of tea (17 sugars all free). £2 for a programme. Children free. There were a squad of Dutch lads (15/16) all there on tour and gobsmacked by the standard.

Yesterday I went to see Charlton v Rotherham again a great game of football, tickets £55 for an adult and child but good seats in the middle of the main stand, I could have reigned it in to about £35 if we had sat in the corner, a cup of tea a cup of Bovril and we shared a pie and mash (£5:40) no change from a tenner, £3:50 for a programme. Again thoroughly enjoyable football, started with a thunderous 35 yarder from Charlton, who won 3-1. The credit card did however take a bit of a battering to the tune of close to £70.

Non league football is a great way to spend an afternoon, with concessions for pensioners it is a fabulous way to engage people in watching sport in their own local communities, get older men out of their houses meeting people, only 91 at Boro, but Hamlet show the potential where the community experience is harnessed and you get gates of north of 2000 its fabulous!

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Tuesday 3rd of April 2018 09:02:24 AM

JonH · All-time great

2,000 is v impressive. 'Gate have always struggled with crowds. For a largeish town (70k population approx) we are not really a sporting town to be fair. There is a rugby club that is past its prime but in terms of sports watching , folks will go to Leeds Utd or Bradford City or maybe up to see Boro play. York at one time drew some fans and in the mid 70's managed to get up into Division 2 (Championship as of now) where they entertained Man Utd if I recall, 15000 turned out in a 10000 capacity ground, people literally on the stand roof etc.

In National League North, Harrogate typically would get 600-800 but it has been a decent season and will get over a 1000 now on the whole, not much more - I think the biggest was around 2500 this season but that was for the Derby with York City. I would worry if we managed to get up a league and struggled (as many do) that we will see crowds fall again, it is a fickle business sport at that level.

I am impressed by your commitment! £70 isnt cheap I agree. Last top level game I went to see was Blackburn v Arsenal quite a few years ago, when Henry played and Arsenal won by a couple of goals. It was way too expensive and other priorities have told me to spend my money elsewhere to be honest. However, I plan to go to both of Town's last two home matches this season and they also play York away which i might get to. York fans caused mayhem when they visited Harrogate though so will take a view on the safety of that nearer the time!

JonH · All-time great

paulisi wrote:
brendan wrote:
paulisi wrote:
There are many non league football clubs struggling at present.
Dulwich is a slightly odd political debate, where the developers wanted to sell the land and build a new stadium only for the council to turn down their site and then they started a vendetta.
Chester, Hartlepool and Dagenham are all in a financial mess. Macclesfield didn't pay their staff in January despite being top of the league.
Worcester have been in a mess for sometime. The old ground wasn't fit for purpose, it was sold, but the owners never got a new ground and the money has run out.
There is plenty of money in conference north at the moment. Salford, Southport and Harrogate all have big money behind them and there are plenty of teams with big support which allows big wages - Stockport, FC United, Darlington, Kiddy etc
As a resident of Southport with only a passing interest in the club I wasn't aware they were that well off, though Haig Avenue is a decent looking stadium. Is that just by the standards of the Conference North or lower leagues in general?
Brendan - I'm from Southport originally and have followed the Port for 30+ years and was secretary of the supporters trust for 8yrs.
The previous chairman was forced out at the end of last season and a new board has formed. Phil Hodgkinson has now joined the board and is about to pump significant sums into the club.
The ground plans will be unveiled at the Floral Hall on Tuesday, but they are talking of spending £2m on the developments.
Spread the word, the club will be going places sooner rather than later.

...I noticed from the remaining fixtures that each of the three teams in the running for the National League North title (Harrogate, Salford and Brackley) have Southport left to play, I think the only team left still to play all 3 of them.

Kingmakers perhaps...

paulisi · Tennis legend

Yes - we will be the key to who wins.
I think Salford are overrated. Brackley are good at home only. Don't write off Harrogate - they were very good when they came to us.