The LTA

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

RE: The LTA

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

It's a strict 'rule' in France that the winner has to offer a drink to the loser. Every tournament, kids and adults. And usually make small talk too - although that's more flexible. The drink isn't !

Elegant Point · Satellite level

The Optimist has hit the nail on the head with the comments about junior matches.

I've witnessed parents having massive rows with umpires and other parents, telling the child's opponent off, telling their children not to speak to the other team and verbally and physically abusing their own children just because they've lost a match - and this was all done in public! Children with 'that tennis parent' frequently stop playing when they get older..........

From CD's comments, yet again the French seem to have a better system and we have a lot to learn!

The Realist · Junior player

I was sad to see the comments of both Elegant Point and The Optimist. I have two daughters, now both in their early twenties, who played junior tournaments all over the country, starting with under 10s and grade 5s and 4s and then progressing through the age groups and up to grade 1s, a few ITFs and then university tennis, one in the UK and the other in the States. Perhaps things have changed in the last few years, but our experiences of junior tennis were very different. Yes, there were some awful cheating kids and horrid parents, but we found them to be in the minority and to a large extent shunned by the other " nice" parents and children. We developed good friendships with other tennis families, and our girls still have tennis friends all over the UK. One of our great delights in seeing our girls play in County Cups is the chance to catch up with other players and parents. Perhaps we were just lucky but we experienced very little of the nastiness which has been mentioned.

One thing about playing college tennis in the States, which our daughter did find difficult though, was that even talking to a fellow Brit on the opposing team was almost regarded as a capital offence!

My main "beef" about junior tournaments was the massive inconsistencies with the refereeing; a few would step in without being asked if they saw cheating, but most would either do nothing unless called on court by a player ( always difficult for the younger shy player) or do nothing at all. In my view, consistently strict refereeing would solve many of the problems mentioned, both with children being pulled up for cheating and bad behaviour on court, and with parents' bad off court behaviour being penalised too in the form of code violations for their children

(The other issue I had with junior tournaments was the entry fees - with two kids playing a couple of singles each and a doubles the fees for one week alone could easily cost £100, plus travel and accommodation.. but plenty has already been said in other places on this forum about tennis being an elitist sport!!!!)

-- Edited by The Realist on Saturday 5th of January 2019 11:18:43 AM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

To be honest, the French approach certainly has a 'social, community' side to it - it's nice that the two players get together afterwards and a free drink is always good, especially when you've just lost. For an individual sport, it's important to try and encourage some friendly aspect to it. (I have been amazed by how players keep to themselves at events in GB, both in the café before and afterwards and on court. I was particularly shocked when I saw Adam TB absolutely thrash a youngster - Mike Shaw, I seem to remember, only about 15 or so, the kids was - leaving him practically in tears and then Adam just did a perfunctory shakehand and raced off. Not that this is unusual here so not targeting Adam as such but, in France, the winner would have had a word with the kid, bought him a drink, and the whole thing would have been 'kinder').

But there's also an economic side. Most of the tournaments are stand-alone ones, they're trying to make a profit (or at least not lose too much).
Given that a kid's inscription is only about 10 euros, and cans of drink sell for 2 euros, 'forcing' players to buy two cans is an important part of the finances. (Adult pay about 17 euros inscription so it still helps there too).
Some tournaments are quite blatant about it and put up a sign over the sign-in judge's table saying 'Don;t forget to get your opponent a drink' - or words to that effect.
They can't enforce it but if you don't, it will almost certainly come to the tournament organiser's attention and I wouldn't bank on you getting the timeslot you want the next day !

The Realist · Junior player

Personally I would have been horrified if one of my children had behaved like ATB - nearly all their tennis friends were originally tennis opponents, some wins, some losses.

Maybe the current situation is just a sad reflection on how children are brought up these days...

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

Interesting comments from everyone. I think The Realist is good to point out another side to tennis over here. Certainly if you go to County Cup or County Week, the atmosphere in the teams is just great. Most of the players have grown up together tennis-wise and you see some real friendships. However, these are the players for whom tennis was probably the #1 activity as a youngster. If you play enough events you find the nice families and get to know the other pleasant players and also who to avoid etc. But for the kids who aren't training a couple of times a week but who enjoy tennis and want to play matches, junior tournaments in the UK are overall intimidating and unfriendly and generally full of families and kids for whom the rating system is king.

Edit: Also think The Realist has raised a good point re umpiring. It can be very variable at junior level, and indeed very few matches are actually 'umpired' at all. If the tournaments were run a bit more vigorously that would certainly help. But it's the overall atmosphere for those who aren't part of the main 'tennis kids' that casual junior players find so off-putting.

-- Edited by The Optimist on Saturday 5th of January 2019 03:37:57 PM

TennisMom · Social player

The French system also allows for higher rated players to join the competition at a later date, in a higher round or even tournament.
Therefore the earlier rounds are a more equal match & more fun to play.
Coup probably can explain how they do it, & the criteria much better than me.
In the U.K. the grading & age group , is nowadays totally ignored in the race for highest, easiest points, so there is often a totally unequal 1st match between a recreational player (plays once or perhaps twice a week against a home schooled, full time player.
This is often the first & last competition, for that recreational player.
There needs to be more graded competition with places reserved for the winners & an adhered to entry criteria.
This is done for Road to Wimbledon girls tournament. If memory serves correctly. It was 7.2 & above went straight to county, 6.2 to regional & 4.2 went to straight to Nationals, with winners from those competitions getting reserved places .Its a few years ago my older daughter was 14u. The ratings are more inflated nowadays, but the principle worked well.
At the moment, I agree with others, its an intimidating experience, Ive even overheard a parent tell their daughter (10) they are not allowed to mix/talk to other competitors. They might get an edge. ? Yes, the girl is a very good player for her age but this was a weak grade 4. Ill be interested to see if shes still playing at 14/15

One tournament ,my youngest remembers as one of the best,was a 10u where they had a serve at a pineapple game, whilst waiting for the boxes to all finish. She lost every match & I remember it being cold & damp too.

The French buy each other a drink, sounds like a great idea especially at county & below. Who knows it might even become the norm at higher levels. I think that I will start at the next match my youngest wins. So, if some weirdo offers your kid a drink afterwards , that will be me.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Great post, TennisMom - and you go for it - start a new tradition

I can't understand not having a progressive draw - as you say, what on earth is the point for either player?

It's a simple system in France - the draw is based on your national ranking and, as such, is staggered - effectively the 5 (say) unranked, 10.2 and 10.1 would play in round one, with the 2 winners going to play the 9.2 and 9.1s the next day etc. etc. (I don't really know the UK ranking system but you get my point)

And, importantly, you get, say, 50 points for a win at your own level, 30 for one rank below, 20 for two ranks below and none for three ranks below so a 7.2 beating a 9.2, say, would give the 7.2 nothing. (you get increased points for beating players one, two whatever levels above you too). So (apart from a few championship exceptions) all players can play all tournaments, as they all start at the bottom and work up.

Born2WinTennis · Club Coach

Interesting points. I'm a basic grade referee, I can referee tournaments up to grade 5, however due to some of the points mentioned above I've never organised a junior competition. I've always stuck to adults. Since it's just a part-time hobby for me, that I wish to enjoy, I would quickly get put off if I encountered any cheating kids and pushy parents. However, I do think the LTA are addressing the need for recreational competition, they have the new team challenge events, they have team tennis, quorn family cup, road to wimbledon lower ratings and schools competition for lower ratings. I've just sold my corporate tennis competition and I'm going to start a new social tennis team competition for recreational adults...and one of my rules will be the winning team must buy the first round of drinks

Elegant Point · Satellite level

Andy Murray criticises the LTA for failing to build on his legacy by increasing participation - various reports in the media

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I may be wrong but I can't help thinking that a good chunk of what the LTA seems to be doing is just an excuse to fund jollies.

I look at photos like the recent one at the Florida training camp and think how much did that cost, to fly and put up SO many people, only a few of whom are players?

pbs.twimg.com/media/DuiHetZWwAULbDf.jpg

Now, I realise that weather in the UK is not right for ouotdoor tennis and the tour is about to start outside, in warm climes and that coaches and physios etc are needed. But I don't think it's done like this in other countries, especially when this comes on top of all the junior training camps that are held with EACH player bringing their own coach, and the LTA coaches too, all paid for, etc. etc.

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Coup Droit wrote:
I may be wrong but I can't help thinking that a good chunk of what the LTA seems to be doing is just an excuse to fund jollies.

I look at photos like the recent one at the Florida training camp and think how much did that cost, to fly and put up SO many people, only a few of whom are players?

pbs.twimg.com/media/DuiHetZWwAULbDf.jpg

Now, I realise that weather in the UK is not right for ouotdoor tennis and the tour is about to start outside, in warm climes and that coaches and physios etc are needed. But I don't think it's done like this in other countries, especially when this comes on top of all the junior training camps that are held with EACH player bringing their own coach, and the LTA coaches too, all paid for, etc. etc.

They did something similar at La Manga a few years back. There were about 40 players here in total. I am sure flying them to Spain is cheaper than flying them to Florida. Our weather isn't too bad either.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

re my comments about the LTA and its funded jollies, I note that the USA are not even sending one single coach to Les Petits As (or Bolton) for the group they selected.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/jan/25/lta-failed-act-warnings-sex-abuse-coach-daniel-sanders

This is in its own thread for Sanders but deserves highlighting