Week 16 - Tunisia F15 ($15,000) - Hammamet (clay)

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Week 16 - Tunisia F15 ($15,000) - Hammamet (clay)

Jaggy1876 · Grand Slam Champion

Grigelis too good for futures not good enough for Challengers.

In a similar way to Aljaz. Too good for Challengers not good enough ATP.

theemptyvessel · Club Coach

Jaggy1876 wrote:
Grigelis too good for futures not good enough for Challengers.

In a similar way to Aljaz. Too good for Challengers not good enough ATP.

You seem to have an axe to grind on this topic. Aljaz may not be dominant at ATP level but to say not good enough is laughably ignorant at best.

indiana · Tennis legend

theemptyvessel wrote:
Jaggy1876 wrote:
Grigelis too good for futures not good enough for Challengers.

In a similar way to Aljaz. Too good for Challengers not good enough ATP.
You seem to have an axe to grind on this topic. Aljaz may not be dominant at ATP level but to say not good enough is laughably ignorant at best.

I do agree that Aljaz on form ( and he lost it last year for some differing reasons ) is certainly good enough to be competing at ATP level. But I think poor Jaggy may have got out of bed the wrong side this morning the number of players he has been dismissing in various ways!

Anyway Aljaz's career record at ATP tour level ( and above ) is 55 ( fifty-five ) wins, 75 losses with it 4-6 this year. Not an overall winning record, but it shows how he is pretty competitive and he has had some very good weeks.

-- Edited by indiana on Friday 14th of April 2017 09:02:16 PM

paulisi · Tennis legend

unfortunately Grigelis is not even a top futures player any more,
Remember Bedene has made an ATP final

Jaggy1876 · Grand Slam Champion

indiana wrote:
theemptyvessel wrote:
Jaggy1876 wrote:
Grigelis too good for futures not good enough for Challengers.

In a similar way to Aljaz. Too good for Challengers not good enough ATP.
You seem to have an axe to grind on this topic. Aljaz may not be dominant at ATP level but to say not good enough is laughably ignorant at best.

I do agree that Aljaz on form ( and he lost it last year for some differing reasons ) is certainly good enough to be competing at ATP level. But I think poor Jaggy may have got out of bed the wrong side this morning the number of players he has been dismissing in various ways!
Anyway Aljaz's career record at ATP tour level ( and above ) is 55 ( fifty-five ) wins, 75 losses with it 4-6 this year. Not an overall winning record, but it shows how he is pretty competitive and he has had some very good weeks.

-- Edited by indiana on Friday 14th of April 2017 09:02:16 PM

Firstly, the claim of ignorance is nonsense. I've seen Aljaz at least a dozen times probably more. Haven't seen much that suggests he's more than a 50ranked player. The Stats also back me up.

And secondly I have no axe to grind, I prefer to be more realistic in my views which are backed by watching a lot of tennis as well as the facts and statistics.

So to bring it back full circle, Grigelis is a top futures player (not a challenger level) exactly the test Jay needs to prove he's better than and therefore move up from futures. I find it laughable when people complain about draws players get it's almost like an excuse at times.

Jaggy1876 · Grand Slam Champion

paulisi wrote:
unfortunately Grigelis is not even a top futures player any more,
Remember Bedene has made an ATP final

Victor Estrella Burgos in Quito was a point I made on the other thread. Find a poor enough ATP tournament with climate conditions to suit and a few challenger players may prosper.

steven · Tennis legend

Jaggy1876 wrote:
indiana wrote:
theemptyvessel wrote:
Jaggy1876 wrote:
Grigelis too good for futures not good enough for Challengers.

In a similar way to Aljaz. Too good for Challengers not good enough ATP.
You seem to have an axe to grind on this topic. Aljaz may not be dominant at ATP level but to say not good enough is laughably ignorant at best.

I do agree that Aljaz on form ( and he lost it last year for some differing reasons ) is certainly good enough to be competing at ATP level. But I think poor Jaggy may have got out of bed the wrong side this morning the number of players he has been dismissing in various ways!
Anyway Aljaz's career record at ATP tour level ( and above ) is 55 ( fifty-five ) wins, 75 losses with it 4-6 this year. Not an overall winning record, but it shows how he is pretty competitive and he has had some very good weeks.

-- Edited by indiana on Friday 14th of April 2017 09:02:16 PM
Firstly, the claim of ignorance is nonsense. I've seen Aljaz at least a dozen times probably more. Haven't seen much that suggests he's more than a 50ranked player. The Stats also back me up.
And secondly I have no axe to grind, I prefer to be more realistic in my views which are backed by watching a lot of tennis as well as the facts and statistics.
So to bring it back full circle, Grigelis is a top futures player (not a challenger level) exactly the test Jay needs to prove he's better than and therefore move up from futures. I find it laughable when people complain about draws players get it's almost like an excuse at times.

You've seen him play more than I have, so you may have a point when you say Aljaz is 'only' a top 50 player at his best (assuming that's what you meant) but if so, you seem to be undermining your own argument. 50 is very much good enough to be a main tour level player - Challenger level is more like WR 100-250 or maybe 75-300 at a pinch.

Oakland2002 · All-time great

An interesting debate and I think you are both right to a degree but Steven more right than wrong. It is to do with definitions and categorisation of variables or outcomes i.e. I think we are talking about an outcome that is continuous, you are looking at performance over a period of time, however the time period you choose is arbitrary both in length and timing.

Surely the definition should be around the tour on which you score the majority of your points in a calendar year or should it? Aljaz has had to drop down to the challenger level to accumulate enough points to maintain a rank that will allow him DE to slams.

I am making an assumption that the main protagonists in this debate are men and therefore will utilise the CTFA (communicating through football analogy) gene recently isolated by the genome project gene that is sex linked and found on the otherwise fairly pathetic Y chromosome.

Given the present point scoring mechanisms which allow two weekly promotion and relegation one could argue Aljaz has been relegated from the premiership recently ( for about 3 months) and had to put in a decent stint in the championship to get him back up.

That said he has been a premiership regular for the last 2 years. I would say he is the equivalent of Newcastle or West Ham, although not Everton or higher so definitely an ATP tour player but not immune from relegation however of a quality that allows almost instant promotion.

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Saturday 15th of April 2017 06:00:38 AM

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Saturday 15th of April 2017 06:01:36 AM

indiana · Tennis legend

The original claim on Aljaz was that he was not good enough for ATP. Steven has it in a nutshell.

That simply is not the same as that he's no more than a 50 ranked player", which there may well be a case for.

theemptyvessel · Club Coach

Reading that back I take back the ignorant comment, it was rather rude. I rather meant that to say he is not good enough was somewhat hyperbolic when he has had several good runs in ATP events and has beaten the likes of Wawrinka, RBA, Lopez and Simon to name a few. Steven and Indy summed it up nicely so I will shut my trap and again apologies for my outburst.

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

QR1: Bruno Luca Faletto (CHI) WR 1989 defeated James Allemby UNR by 4 & 4

QR1: Curtis Clarke UNR defeated Felix Reindl (GER) UNR by 1 & 0

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

QR2: (q3) Luca Margaroli (SUI) WR 772 (CH = 766 in February) vs Curtis Clarke UNR

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

QR2: (q3) (wc) Luca Margaroli (SUI) WR 772 def. Curtis Clarke UNR 6-3 6-3

Oakland2002 · All-time great

I don't think anybody needs to apologise, how boring would this forum become if everyone agreed, Aljaz is a fine player but not good enough to maintain enough points playing exclusively ATP events to be a shoe in for RG. So you have a point in that he is not good enough to play exclusively on the ATP tour and stay on it. Some players are. It is what it is.