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Post Info TOPIC: Strongest Nation?


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RE: Strongest Nation?


AliBlahBlah wrote:

I think that becasue you're looking at the Top 10 per country, at the lower end of that scale, players are never going to be in big events.
Where they make their movement would be at normal ITF events off the WTA/ATP.
Winning a small event can have a big impact on, say, the #8 spot for a country, improving it by around 20 places. That then cascades across the rankings as, crudely, a 2 place improvement per player.

If Rafa wins Roland Garros, he improves his ranking maybe 3 places. It's a great victory, but doesn't speak to strength in depth.
The Davis Cup effectively (by original intent at least) serves as the mark for the Nation that can field the strongest team at the very top, and in that case, Masters/Premier Mandatories-Grand Slams would affect that sort of a ranking more.

But, here, the little tournaments and lesser player can have a role (arguably too much of one).
This is reflected exactly in DC weeks, becasue only the lesser ranks are playing for ranking points and thus have a chance of moving up or down - slightly complicated by the extra week delay in adding points from the lowest tier of events, which means that the week the points go on is not necessarily a reflection of the previous weeks performance.


 Yes, that makes sense, I hadn't thought that one through. It's a tricky balance to get right and at least with your data, we can pick our own points of reference (top 10, top 5, top 20) to look at. I still like the Top 10 and will keep going with that. I noticed across the board, USA seem to be improving a lot and closing in at third place - they actually have strong depth, the issue being no players really at the top end (ie in the top 10 of the rankings), but it will be interesting to follow their improvement.

 

 



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JonH


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It looks like France are going to rush past Spain - all their top players are in Monte Carlo this week and thanks to a large drop for Garcia-Lopez to around 114 in live rankings, then Spain will drop to below an average of 40 with France moving ahead at around 39 average ranking. So France will be the strongest nation in mens tennis at pretty much every ranking point by next Monday.

Interestingly, Spain will also have just 9 men in the top 100, same as USA come next Monday, 24th April. France will have 10 players. France also have 11th and 12th players at 106 and 111 respectively in live running, Spain have 11th and 12th players at 123 and 134. I suspect once France get in front next week, they will stay their for a while. Given it is the French Presidential election this weekend, it seems somehow appropriate that they will move to #1 at the same time.

Wonder where GB will be placed around June 8th??

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JonH


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Just adding to this, if we take the Live Race, Spain are actually behind the USA based on average of the Top 10, so in year are definitely falling off. And USA arent far behind France in the Race top ten , quite possible USA could be the "strongest" nation on the ATP tour within the next 9-12 months...that would be a surprise!

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JonH


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One of the more striking features is the extent to which the US men trail the US women, who are completely dominant.

I'd guess this is partly due to male US jocks having very good lucrative opportunities/scholarships in other sports such as basketball and their football; partly because of the points allocation for ITF women's tournaments, with 15ks awarding only a quarter of 25k points, which means that the higher money ITF tournaments put on by the USTA give their women the opportunity to fly up the rankings, past their European counterparts who can expect to be stuck in 15ks for several years.

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I found an old out-of-date list of countries ranked by the aggreagte points scores of their top tens, here...

tennisgrrrl.com/countryrankings.shtml

...since when, GB have improved considerably. By my sketchy maths, we have increased out total from 4398 to 6710; position 13 on the list.

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wimdledont wrote:

I found an old out-of-date list of countries ranked by the aggreagte points scores of their top tens, here...

tennisgrrrl.com/countryrankings.shtml

...since when, GB have improved considerably. By my sketchy maths, we have increased out total from 4398 to 6710; position 13 on the list.


 Thanks wimbledont, the link doesnt work for me though unfortunately. Good to see doing it that way shows in the same position as average rank of top ten.

As an aside, looks like France should ascend to top spot in the mens today, will wait for ABB to officially confirm!



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JonH


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Updated: https://public.tableau.com/views/20170424ATPWTACountryStrengths/ATPCountryRankings?:embed=y&:display_count=yes

ATP
Over to JonH for the headlines...

GB stay yet again in 13th; avg. ranking falls a point from 206 to 207.
GB #9 spot falls from 376 to 393 with Glasspool too busy tweeting nonsense to play any good tennis and shore up the spot.

WTA
Very quiet in Fed Cup week and thus no WTA action. Only two events worldwide adding points this week (a $125K & a $60K, plus holdovers from last week).
All of which means everything stays the same with GB in 13th Place, and on the same avg. ranking, of 209.



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Thanks ABB - not much to say really, France jump into top spot in the mens!However, for average rankings below top 10 (ie top 9, top 8 etc) Spain would hold the spot, for everything at 10 and above it is France. Which suggests that France now have the strength in depth more than any other country, whereas they still lack those one or two top end star players to dominate at the very top of the game.

One change though of interest was South Africa moving through and improving their average from nearly 1200 to around 1000, a massive single week improvement, not sure quite on the detail of how and why, but quite a dramatic move.



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JonH


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I did look at South Africa.
One of their players, Ruan Roelofse, mostly a doubles specialist, came through qualies at a challenger in Taiwan, scored 5 ATP points, and went up 500 places as a result. This obviously affected the overall averages.
At that sort of 1100-1600 level, those sorts of points hauls are sufficiently rare amongst nations to whom it would make a difference (i.e. it would not show up if an American or Frenchman did it, as WR1100 would not be in their top 10), that it meant a huge leap forward for the nation as a whole compared to others at that end of the table.

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Thanks guys. Next week not looking too hot for our men or women's average. But that tale will be told in time.



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Hi ABB, wondered if you had time to update the rankings this week? As indi. Mentions, suspect Gb teams will see averages fall a fair amount?

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JonH


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I've done the ATP.
The WTA website is completely borked, and the rankings aren't available yet.

Here's the blurb I wrote for the ATP side though.

ATP
France hold off Spain at the top, and the gap in the averages is now fully 4.4 points. 40 vs. 44.
This means that France & Spain are both weakening compared to the start of the year, when they were 35 & 32 avg ranking, respectively.

GB... you guessed it, still 13th.
But, average ranking crashes from 207 to 213, though this is still up from the start of the year, when it was 218.
This is despite Aljaz's amazing form and rise.
Blame Liam, as he plummets 70 places in the week.



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Thanks ABB - looks like GB will be staying in 13th all year!

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JonH


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Updated: https://public.tableau.com/views/20170501ATPWTACountryStrengths/ATPCountryRankings?:embed=y&:display_count=yes

ATP (See above)

WTA
Quiet at the top.

Significant Falls from Laura R, And Katie's B & S see GB fall a place as avg ranking also tumbles.
We slide to #15 at avg. rank 214, down from 209 last week. This more or less returns us to where we were at the start of the year.
When you take performance of all ranked players into account, GB have fallen steadily further & further behind the median for ranked players and the average ranking of those ranked players. That trend is even more pronounced measured against countries of broadly similar population and economic status - we are a long way behind 'in real terms'.



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Thanks to ABB for updating the Nations tables this week

public.tableau.com/profile/insomniacfolder

ATP - Argentina and Germany swap places in 4 and 5 respectively. Czech Republic also move into top 10 at Serbia's expense. France remain top and GB remain in 13th place and on an average of 215.

WTA - GB remain in 15th place but with a slight average improvement back to 213. Biggest move is a jump from Slovakia of 3 places into the top 10, and an average improvement from 208 to 191. The jump is almost all down to Rybarikova who rose 146 places this week.

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JonH
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