Week 44 - WTA Elite Trophy - Zhuhai, China - Indoor Hard

indiana · Tennis legend

Week 44 - WTA Elite Trophy - Zhuhai, China - Indoor Hard

steven · Tennis legend

JoKo is the top seed in the Azalea Group. I'm guessing the two highest-ranked players in the group will play the last match but I don't know that for certain, so this order might change:

(1) Johanna Konta WR 10 v Caroline Garcia (FRA) WR 23 (=CH)

H2H 1-1 - Garcia won 6-4 6-1 ret. in Madrid but Jo won 2 & 3 in R2 at the Rio Olympics.

(1) Johanna Konta WR 10 v Samantha Stosur (AUS) WR 20 (CH 4 in 2011)

H2H 0-0

There are four flowery groups of three, with only the top player in each group to make the semis.

Spectator · All-time great

That's actually a super line-up of players - it's a really good idea to have this tournament. Wonder if the ATP would consider something similar. Good luck to Ms Konta!

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

Are the points earnt in this "bonus" points on top of the counting 16?
If so, E&OE, Jo could in theory sneak past Kuznetsova by year end; if not, not...

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

vohor wrote:
Are the points earnt in this "bonus" points on top of the counting 16? [...]

No, the Zhuhai points will replace the lowest eligible of a players current 16 scores.

In Johanna's case, this is the 55 points from Birmingham - her 10 points from each of Madrid & the French Open are lower, but are mandatory counters on her card.

So, for example, if Johanna goes undefeated throughout the Zhuhai week, and scores the maximum 700 points available, she will add 645 (700 - the 55 from Birmingham being replaced) points to her current total.
That would mean that her best case scenario finish for the season is her current 3,455 points plus 645 from Zhuhai: 3,455 + 645 = 4,100
4,100 points would, as you correctly identify, not be enough to see her advance any places, with Kuznetsova in 9th on 4,115 (a huge number for WR 9 - Serena not winning everything and gobbling up all the points spreads them instead amongst the next best players).

Jo looks set to finish in tenth place, unless she completely flops in, and Carla dominates in, Zhuhai. In which case, they may switch at the end of the week.

indiana · Tennis legend

I was pretty sure that both the tour final points and elite trophy points were previously part of players' 16 counters.

I see that all the tour final points have been straight added as 'bonus' points. Is this a change this year and if so is it possible that the same may apply for the elite trophy ?

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

Haven't ever needed to think about it before from a GBR perspective; but I had a vague feeling that these events were "bonus" points counters. It seems odd in principle if you've done well all season to qualify that if you lose all your matches you could end up worse off than if you hadn't qualified. What about those who qualified but opted out of coming? Ah well, what will be will be and it's nice to even have to think about it! smile

-- Edited by vohor on Monday 31st of October 2016 03:33:46 PM

AliBlahBlah · All-time great

OK.

I am partially wrong.

According to the supplemental Appendix to the WTA rules (not published in the normal WTA rules!):
Section IX
Part A
Item 7
Subsection i

For Singapore:

The ranking points that a Finals Singles Qualified Player or Finals Alternate earns at the WTA Finals count as a bonus Tournament in calculating her WTA Ranking.

So, it appears do you just add on the total for Singapore, and get 17 scores.

That being the case. I disagree pretty strongly with this. The Singapore players get to count 17 tournaments all year long? That's not right, and no wonder it's not publicised, as perhaps the general reception would be, "how is that a level playing field?".

For Zhuhai, the rules are different (IX, B, 7, i):

The ranking points that an Elite Trophy Singles Qualified Player or Elite Trophy Alternate earns at the WTA Elite Trophy are eligible to count in calculating her WTA Ranking.

So, from that, I read that Zhuhai does replace your best 16th counter, and you count only 16 events.

Edit: formatting

-- Edited by AliBlahBlah on Monday 31st of October 2016 03:51:30 PM

the addict · Tennis legend

That's how I read it, Ali, and I also disagree with the principle.

There are different rules for the top ten players about what they have to play, and what they have to count towards their rankings. Seems a bit hard on those not at Singapore but in the top ten - i.e. Jo !

indiana · Tennis legend

OK, that definitely does appear to be a change for the Tour Finals as I thought.

I have checked back ranking scores for a couple of players that I knew had more than the 16 counters and in these previous weeks the 2015 Finals scores were part of their 16 counters, not a bonus.

e.g. Kerber :

17/10 points : 8310 ( are from 16 counters Incl WTF - I added them up! )
24/10 points : 8000 = 8310 - 370 ( 2015 WTF ) + 60 ( next best counter )
31/10 points : 9080 = 8000 + 1080 ( 2016 WTF ) so added as a bonus 17th with the 60 not being taken off again.

The same held for Radwanska with a 105 score added in then not taken off again.

It would seem reasonable to make the same change for Zhuhai. but yes as per Ali's quote apparently not if these are this year's Zhuhai rules. Although you could argue I guess about say the Zhuhai champion outscoring most of the tour final players - not that the Finals players would be exactly suffering!

-- Edited by indiana on Monday 31st of October 2016 04:32:11 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

vohor wrote:
Haven't ever needed to think about it before from a GBR perspective; but I had a vague feeling that these events were "bonus" points counters. It seems odd in principle if you've done well all season to qualify that if you lose all your matches you could end up worse off than if you hadn't qualified. What about those who qualified but opted out of coming? Ah well, what will be will be and it's nice to even have to think about it!

-- Edited by vohor on Monday 31st of October 2016 03:33:46 PM

Even if Zhuhai is not a bonus counter you couldn't lose points by doing relatively badly there. If your Zhuhai points didn't beat your existing 16th counter you would just stay on the same points.

The real argument is the principle, if you have a full set of counters, of 'losing' relative to the tour finals players who clearly have added 'bonuses'.

indiana · Tennis legend

Then again we might arguably be making a bit much of it given it comes down to players' 16th / 17th counters. It is keeping the additional counter that is the points 'bonus'.

From what I can see Aga's 16th now staying in of 105 points is probably about as high as the overall 'bonus' effectively gets. Keys won't currently have a bonus counter and Serena wouldn't have had even if she had competed in Shanghai and some may say just be 1 for a R1 loser. Of course, that is largely their choice and all the tour final players have the opportunity of a 17th counter bonus which they might add in the future.

For Jo, if Zhuhai was a 'bonus' event it would mean as said keeping her current 16th counter of 55, which yes may at times be worth a ranking place or two, at other times not.

-- Edited by indiana on Monday 31st of October 2016 05:42:57 PM

Spectator · All-time great

Hmm. On principle, the idea that eight players get 17 tournaments and the rest of the field (including those directly competing with them) 16 does not seem right. Doubt it makes any difference whatsoever if you go below WR20, but it does make it harder to break in from 12 - 20.

wolf · Tennis legend

Does anyone know how doubles entry worked? I had presumed there wasn't any before I looked at the OOP.

tony_orient · ATP qualifying

I'm not really a fan of this event in general, as I think the tour finals should be the last event of the year and this one fells a bit 'after the lord mayor's show'. I would prefer if it was the week before Singapore as it would also give the top 8 a break.

That being said, I will pay more attention to it with Jo as the number one seed and hope she goes well. It is a strong field and there are no easy matches, but Jo goes into it as one of the form players alongside Kvitova (Wozniacki would have been in that category too but chose not to play).