Weeks 21 & 22 - French Open 2016 (inc. Andy) (clay)

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

RE: Weeks 21 & 22 - French Open 2016 (inc. Andy) (clay)

Spectator · All-time great

Thanks, SC. I realised after I wrote that I should have specified that I was speaking simply about the men's side of the equation: the women's has involved far more countries during the period in question. And we do, on the women's side, have at least one player whom I sincerely hope will continue to give us second-week interest for years to come.

TMH · Futures qualifying

Spectator wrote:
Indeed. And the Head-to-Head statistics are inherently going to flatter Mr Djokovic because of the age differential. Federer was at his peak from 2004 to 2007; Djokovic's first match against him was in 2006. And the only match Djokovic won against him before 2008 was one very tight match in the Canadian Masters. Indeed, up to the point in 2010 when Federer was the age that Djokovic is now, the record was 10-5 in Federer's favour. The record's been balanced by Federer's continuing to play at an age where very few play at this level.

Peak? Utter nonsense. It wasn't coincidence he stopped winning once Nadal, Djokovic and Murray turned up to provide some actual competition. His H2H against all three in what should have been his prime is testament to the quality of his era of dominance. Or lack thereof.

TMH · Futures qualifying

vohor wrote:
Good points, Spectator :)
The GS wins tally is definitive in my book. Federer is still the GOAT on that count.

We have been really lucky having Federer, Nadal and Djokovic all overlapping; Andy less lucky on that score!

GS wins are far from definitive, and certainly favour certain players who played in, shall we say, less competitive eras. How can a player be the supposed GOAT when he's not even the greatest of his era?

H2H's are a far better indicator, and Djokovic's H2H against three of the greatest players to grace the game is supreme.

Hopefully he exceeds Federer's over-inflated tally anyway and puts the conversation to bed. Won't be far short after tomorrow.

wimdledont · Challenger level

Ali is GOAT

indiana · Tennis legend

I continue to dispute that Novak is "easily better than Federer ever was".

As to the "supreme" head to heads, 23-22 vs Fed is kinda close is it not as is 26-23 vs Nadal.

And actually Novak has just gone ahead in each of these two head to heads in the last year against a Fed past his prime and a Nadal below his prime.

Yes, these two built up leads over Novak before he got to his best, but all is far from as clear to me as it appears to be to TMH. Their best periods have not really overlapped.

I do though certainly agree that Grand Slam wins are not definitive, though important, since periods change and Fed did chalk up a lot in earlier less competitive years as Novak now threatens to do later as Fed and Rafa decline.

Probably the best thing in the men's game over the recent period is that it has been so generally competitive at the top between such high class performers with Fed, Rafa and Novak having claims to be the best at periods and Andy really pushing them. And overall, to me, none of them have clearly been the best, which has helped make it so good.

-- Edited by indiana on Saturday 4th of June 2016 06:19:23 PM

Spectator · All-time great

TMH wrote:
Spectator wrote:
Indeed. And the Head-to-Head statistics are inherently going to flatter Mr Djokovic because of the age differential. Federer was at his peak from 2004 to 2007; Djokovic's first match against him was in 2006. And the only match Djokovic won against him before 2008 was one very tight match in the Canadian Masters. Indeed, up to the point in 2010 when Federer was the age that Djokovic is now, the record was 10-5 in Federer's favour. The record's been balanced by Federer's continuing to play at an age where very few play at this level.
Peak? Utter nonsense. It wasn't coincidence he stopped winning once Nadal, Djokovic and Murray turned up to provide some actual competition. His H2H against all three in what should have been his prime is testament to the quality of his era of dominance. Or lack thereof.

Debates about "greatest" players tend, in my experience, to create more heat than light. So nothing I am saying should be taken to disparage either of the players in question - both of whom are clearly among the greatest ever to play the game. But I do think it's overly dismissive of Roger Federer to suggest that "he stopped winning" once Nadal, Djokovic and Murray came onto the scene: he won five more Slams after 2007 ... let alone World Tour Finals, Masters, the #1 ranking, etc ... and this despite glandular fever in 2008 and back issues in 2013. Indeed, Mr Djokovic didn't get a winning record over him until last year's Wimbledon, at which point Federer was 33 going on 34.

In honesty, I have no particular desire to proclaim the merits of any of the Djokovic/Nadal/Federer triumvirate over the others - so this is not a partisan post. The only thing that I would hope, following on from the other comment made in response to vohor, is that tomorrow will not be the occasion of Mr Djokovic's gaining another Grand Slam. I'll freely admit to partisanship on that front!

Vandenburg · Futures level

Somebody else remarked on the thread, how cringe worthy and desperate it was to see Novak doing all that crap with the ball kids at the end of the game. For some reason, novak has never gained the fan stardom that FEDAL gained. I really do not like that chap (also hate boris).

When the crowd really gets behind the other player,, Novak gets really angry. Also, when the is little things are wrong, like wind, or rain, he gets upset. I would have loved to see Novak on the old fast grass at Wimbledon with quick balls, or the AO when it was still fast.

For me this guy is massively overrated and not a patch on FEDAL.

indiana · Tennis legend

Today's the day and will Andy add Roland Garros as another venue he is just too good for Novak in Grand Slam finals ?

Andy has won every Wimbledon final between the two.
Andy has won every US Open final between the two.
Only at the Aussie Open has Novak sneaked over the line ...

-- Edited by indiana on Sunday 5th of June 2016 11:06:44 AM

Jan · Hall of fame

I like your thinking.
And Novak has never beaten Andy in the French final!

thejester · Satellite level

Stating the obvious I know but the 1st set I think is utterly crucial for Andy. Anybody off-hand know what Andy's record is vs Novak in matches that go the distance (5 setters, not 3) ?

TMH · Futures qualifying

thejester wrote:
Stating the obvious I know but the 1st set I think is utterly crucial for Andy. Anybody off-hand know what Andy's record is vs Novak in matches that go the distance (5 setters, not 3) ?

2-1 to Novak - 2012 Australian Open and 2015 Roland Garros, both at the semi final stage. Andy's win was a certain US Open final.

thejester · Satellite level

Thanks TMH. Come on Muzzaaaaa

TMH · Futures qualifying

Thought it looked ominous after Djokovic broke to love in the first game, but he hasn't won a game since and Murray leads 4-1*.

Stircrazy · Tennis legend

Stircrazy wrote:
Final (his first at R-G! ): (1) Novak Djokovic (SRB) WR 1 vs (2) Andy Murray WR 2

Can't quite believe what I'm seeing at the moment: Andy 4-1*.