Mind The Gap (The Amanda Carreras Dilemna)

wimdledont · Challenger level

Mind The Gap (The Amanda Carreras Dilemna)

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

Good essay wimbledont :)

Basically, bar some miraculous quantum leap the points structure and lack of 25Ks has made it virtually impossible for our women to progress into the top bracket whilst based here :(

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

And I genuinely think that it can be almost impossible for a player to break out of 10K tennis if they spend too long in it. Liam Broady touched on this when he went on his break-out run in the States: the standard is variable, you can get away with sloppy errors and over time your game gets pulled down not up.

But the points distribution must affect players from other countries too. Are their players more ready to cut through the lower levels, having, as CD suggests, played a better balance of junior and senior tennis during development? Or are our players more conservative in their tournament choices? Or perhaps we don't have players of a sufficient standard to make the jump? No idea myself but would be interested to hear others' views. But all over the world large cohorts of players plateau at various levels whether due to reaching the limit of their skill, finance or patience, the greatest drop out seeming to be between 10 and 25K. Maybe the points are deliberately skewed so that only those with some sort of realistic chance of success carry on investing their time, money and energy in a professional career?

paulisi · Tennis legend

vohor wrote:
Good essay wimbledont :)

Basically, bar some miraculous quantum leap the points structure and lack of 25Ks has made it virtually impossible for our women to progress into the top bracket whilst based here :(

It's not just a UK issue, it's worldwide.

I have plenty of thoughts on this and will feedback later when I have some time

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

I can imagine it might well be a world-wide issue (although I have an impression of loads of 25Ks in, say, Australia); but the LTA could easily, if it were so minded, afford a decent number of 25Ks to help our women try to bridge the "Gap" identified by wimbledont.

brendan · Strong Club Player

I think we have to accept that they simply aren't good enough. Yes, the likes of the US get the assistance of regular 25k's but as has been pointed out it only gives a push to a fairly mediocre bunch who are destined to languish around the 100 mark. Better to just concentrate on those who have the talent to get there on their own merit than try and skew it in their favour. In my year-end prediction I had Freya making the top 200 and she's shown in flashes that she can reach that level but is still not consistent enough. Until Katie Swan is playing regular senior tennis I can't see anyone else breaking through this year to those heights based on current form.

wimdledont · Challenger level

It is indeed a worldwide issue; and, in my cynical opinion, deliberately designed by the ITF/WTA/Big Sponsors, to make it nearly impossible for very good players from minor nations to even get the chance to compete. Adidas, who have some influence, hope to sell a lot more gear in Baltimore than in Bulgaria; and they already have a stable of their own sponsored players, and no real interest in a change of personnel. The best illustration of the glass ceiling I can find is this Bulgar...

www.wtatennis.com/players/player/15639/title/isabella-shinikova

...who won EIGHT 10k tournaments in 2015, and finds herself promoted to WR303, unlikely to make the cut for European 25ks, but now at least seeded for 10ks.

(EDIT: though checking live rankings, I see she won a 25k last week, so will be up to WR250 or so next week. So there are exceptions, but it is exceptional.)

There are several ways that the system could be made much fairer too all concerned. The 400% differential is absurd; and should be changed. I would like to see the winner of 10k tournaments given an automatic WC to any 25k of their choice; etc.

But while it is as it is, it is nigh-on impossible for players from countries who do not have their own 25k programme to catch up with the players who are playing 25ks regularly, or who get fast-tracked access to them from the JE scheme, or via WCs from their own national governing body.

Hence, there are 34 Americans with 150+ ranking points, having moved beyond 10k tournaments, despite the fact that the USTA hardly runs any 10k tounaments. Their starter- level is 25k, with quadruple the points on offer.

For GB players, their one annual opportunity is now the June grass court season; if they are already good enough to compete on the WTA tour, or against the strongest ITF 50k fields of the year, on a surface which is not used for 11 months out of 12.

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

brendan wrote:
I think we have to accept that they simply aren't good enough. Yes, the likes of the US get the assistance of regular 25k's but as has been pointed out it only gives a push to a fairly mediocre bunch who are destined to languish around the 100 mark. Better to just concentrate on those who have the talent to get there on their own merit than try and skew it in their favour. In my year-end prediction I had Freya making the top 200 and she's shown in flashes that she can reach that level but is still not consistent enough. Until Katie Swan is playing regular senior tennis I can't see anyone else breaking through this year to those heights based on current form.

Sorry, Brendan; it would not be skewing things in anyone's favour to hold a reasonable number of 25Ks; it would be simply providing the opportunity (and levelling the playing field with certain other countries). Those who are good enough will cross the bridge over the gap; those who are not will not.

paulisi · Tennis legend

Here are my thoughts -

I very much agree with Wimbledont on many of the issues apart from the big sponsors argument.

If you are good enough you will sail through the gap, otherwise you will fall into the blackhole.

I'm not sure the removal of the 15k tournaments has helped (even though there weren't that many)

There is too big a gap in rankings of players playing 10k tournaments -on average 300 to unranked and this does cause a big distortion in ability. To get into 25K's at present you need to gain a ranking around 250-300 which you need around 180-200pts

You cannot get into that range playing 10K's alone under the current point situation. 200pts across 16 tournaments would mean an average of 12.5pts per tournament. The winner of a 10K only gets 12pts.....

There are two or three ways of tackling the issue:

1. Extend the ranking required to get into 25ks - the ITF tournament scheduling is terrible and has been for some time. Even with the analysis done last year very little seems to have changed. If there are more 125K, 100K, 75K and 50K tournaments at the same time as 25K's then the better players will play in these events and the 25k's will be less loaded and the developing players will have a better chance of winning and picking up points.
I'd even recommend having one higher ranked ITF event and 2 x 25K every week in each region. This will take out quite a few of the issues and make the 25ks less loaded and thus better chances for the developing player to pick up points.
2. Change the points structure at 10K as it is poorly weighted.
3. Set up an interim competition to develop these people - 15k's have now been stopped. I would like to see them being brought back and in regular numbers.

There are a lot of good players in this 300-600 category that are missing out due to the inadequacies of the system. Likewise there are a lot of players stuck in the 120-250 bracket that are just playing the 25k circuit.(it's not a British issue as we don't have any in this criteria at the moment)

All three points need to be addressed, but point 1 in particular and it is limited by politics and financial issues

insomniacfolder · Challenger level

Which leads on to the topic which I have spent easily 10,000 words childishly whining about in these pages previously on many occasions, about how the ITF/WTA points system, from top to bottom, does not serve the game well, and leads to these sorts of dilemmas, and the pooling of players in discrete groups throughout the rankings, with almost no outlet to escape the groups.

If you want to bore yourself, one such time I banged on interminably, can be found, here.

paulisi · Tennis legend

vohor wrote:
I can imagine it might well be a world-wide issue (although I have an impression of loads of 25Ks in, say, Australia); but the LTA could easily, if it were so minded, afford a decent number of 25Ks to help our women try to bridge the "Gap" identified by wimbledont.

Australia is slightly different in that it is difficult and expensive to get to. So the Aussie Fed are effectively helping boost the ranking of the Aussies and the far east, although it may not be as competitive as Europe or USA. They get found out when they travel abroad.

It's not really helped in the rankings:

these are their only players between 100 and 300 - Dellacqua, Wolfe, Rodionova, Rogowska, Birrell and Moore and most of those are only just inside the top 300

cwej · Lower Club Player

I get lots of the arguments here, but I do agree with whoever said 'they're just simply not good enough'. Players do break into the top 200 in other countries and not always where they have 25k tournaments. It only takes one or two good runs in a 25k tournaments to move the players up E.g. If Tara Moore could get through one tournament and win it, she'd instantly be back to the top 250-ish. And she's an example of someone who has moved OUT of that top 300, from within the top 200. It can work both ways!

Players are given opportunities with plenty of WCs at the grass season (and have a huge benefit over most other countries who don't play on grass at all when it comes to that season), but most don't win any/many rounds.. And they are extremely lucky to have one of the 4 GS tournaments here, where they get yet another chance to prove themselves with WCs in Qualifying if they're in that 300-500 range.

Freya is a player who will probably make it up to the top 200 after the grass season. She's clearly on the up. But she'll make it from her own hard work, not because they change some tournaments around to make it easier for her!

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

Thing is, over the last couple of years the LTA have focussed more on 25K events than 10K and very few of our girls gained points in them. Those who may have been expected to, chose to go further afield where the fields were a little less strong.

Agree with Paulisi that the distribution of tournaments worldwide does need attention so that there is a reasonably consistent ratings cut-off at each grade of event. I thought that was something that the ITF was intending to address as a result of their player surveys but I can't remember the timescale they attached to it.