Golf handicap scoring system....?

Arcadian · Improver

Golf handicap scoring system....?

paulisi · Tennis legend

There are plenty of rating systems within the LTA - check out their site. They have the traditional rating system of which the best is 1.1 and you climb the ratings by playing comps and winning matches.
There are domestic rankings and there are international rankings, which give you an idea of what level you are against your opposition.

There is no sort of handicap matches in tennis as far as I am aware.

Arcadian · Improver

Thanks yes I know a little about it but from what I've read it still seems to revolve around winning and losing as distinct from improving one's handicap as in golf. I guess it's an individual preference really, but it would be really nice to escape for once from always winning and losing all the time as it's such a great sport in itself.... wink

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

Golfing handicaps work brilliantly because it's you against the course; trouble with tennis is there's a blighter the other side of the net. Even if he/she is only marginally better in each rally you can end up losing 0-6, 0-6 instead of being just a few shots behind gross and maybe even winning net. Both are great/infuriating sports in their different ways :)

indiana · Tennis legend

Essentially to me tennis is about winning and losing.

So great to have ratings systems and while I don't know much about them, they clearly serve important purposes, but I would personally put comparatively very little emphasis on how 'easily' matches are won and lost compared to more simply who players won and lost against. The most satsisfying ( and real ) progress is starting to beat better players.

Golf is in so many ways a battle against the scorecard, the course and oneself rather than bettering specific opponents ( though of course in the much more limited KOs you are trying to do that too ) and is to me pretty different, and I can understand the drive and enjoyment in improving a handicap.

-- Edited by indiana on Wednesday 9th of December 2015 04:35:51 PM

Arcadian · Improver

Hi again, the reason I brought up the original subject of whether it was possible or not to have some sort of handicap like golf in tennis, was because an old tennis and golf friend of mine who I played with for many years in both, occasionally used to discuss whether it would ever be a real possibility or not.

Apparently he'd been talking about it with his wife shortly before he unfortunately died a few months ago, so when she finally got around to sorting out some of his old papers, she found some notes he'd made about it all which she didn't understand as she's never played either game. Then knowing we sometimes used to talk about it wondered if I was interested would I like to have them.

Well obviously I was interested, and having read through the rough draft below a few times whilst not being mathematically minded I think it makes interesting reading in theory if nothing else. I therefore rang her back telling her about this forum I'd just found and would she mind if I eventually posted the details in public on here to see what people thought and if it was workable or not, to which she agreed and hoped that something might come of it.

Although it's all a little over my head it would be interesting to hear some thoughts and views as to whether it might eventually be made to work....

Thanks

__________________

Rough First Draft

General Rules

1. Each player to keep the opponent's score as in golf.

2. Each player to have say 10 serves in turn meaning one "Service Game" for both.

3. Change ends halfway through.

4. Each point won by a player scores 1 point.

5. Each point lost by a player loses 1 point.

6. Double faults loses the server 2 points.

7. To continue until both players have had say 10 individual "Service Games". This would mark the end of the whole game.

8. Players for doubles and mixed doubles games would be called for example Team A, Team B and so on.

Example of 10 Service Games so as to achieve an initial Handicap Rating

Score Carried

Forwards

Service Game 1

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 6 points so loses 4. + 2

(Total + 6 and -4 = +2)

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 7 points so loses 3. + 4

(Total + 7 and -3 = +4)

Service Game 2

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. 0

(Total + 4 and -6 = -2. Carried forwards +2 and -2 = 0)

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 6 points so loses 4. + 6

(Total +6 and -4 = +2. Carried forwards +4 and +2 = +6)

Service Game 3

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. - 2

(Total +4 and -6 = -2. Carried forwards 0 and -2 = -2)

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 6 points so loses 4. + 8

(Total +6 and -4 = +2. Carried forwards +6 and + 2 = +8)

Service Game 4

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 3 points so loses 7. - 6

(Total +3 and -7 = -4. Carried forwards -4 and -2 = -6)

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. + 6

(Total +4 and -6 = -2. Carried forwards -2 and +8 = +6)

Service Game 5

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. - 8

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 5 points so loses 5. + 6

Service Game 6

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. - 10

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. + 4

Service Game 7

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 8 points so loses 2. - 4

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. + 2

Service Game 8

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. - 6

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 6 points so loses 4. + 4

Service Game 9

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 3 points so loses 7. - 10

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 6 points so loses 4. + 6

Service Game 10

Player A serves 10 serves and wins 4 points so loses 6. - 12

Player B serves 10 serves and wins 6 points so loses 4. + 8

Handicap Rating :

Player A : Minus 12

Player B : Plus 8

-- Edited by Arcadian on Thursday 10th of December 2015 09:46:08 PM

indiana · Tennis legend

In that example actually all we essentially have overall is each player takes 100 serves in 10 groups of 10.

On his serve Player A in total won 44 points and lost 56. Lost 12 more than he won.

On his serve Player B in total won 54 points and lost 46, won 8 more than he lost.

From this he assigns Player A an initial handicap rating of minus 12 and player B an initial handicap rating of plus 8.

Observations :

1) In spite of the step by step approach at the end of the day he's simply totalled 100 serves for each.

2) Only serves for each player have been counted to that initial handicap with nothing based on how they personally returned i.e apparently whatever happened with Player B's serves ( i.e. player A's returns ) Player A would still have had an initial handicap of minus 12.

3) So I absolutely see what he has done and absolutely don't know what he would then do going forward with this purely serve based figure.

4) No idea why he mentions counting DFs as minus 2 given they aren't counted double normally. In his example he either is assuming no DFs at all in each group of 10 serves or just not using this 'rule' since there would be more than 10 total points in a game if a DF was counting 2.

Sorry, but there really is no indication where this was going at all really, and how it was intended to be applied. Well, not to me anyway ..

Pity we can have no way of knowing presumably what further thoughts your old friend had.

-- Edited by indiana on Thursday 10th of December 2015 11:14:03 PM

Arcadian · Improver

indiana wrote:

2) Only serves for each player have been counted to that initial handicap with nothing based on how they personally returned i.e apparently whatever happened with Player B's serves ( i.e. player A's returns ) Player A would still have had an initial handicap of minus 12.

Thank you for your thoughts as I said still all a bit over my head.

When you say how they personally returned the serves, whatever happened with Player A's returns, I took him to mean the final win or lose result of the ensuing individual rally after Player B's serve ? Ditto all the remaining Service Games, serves and rallies of both players.

Apologies if I've got it wrong which is more than likely....

indiana · Tennis legend

Arcadian wrote:
indiana wrote:

2) Only serves for each player have been counted to that initial handicap with nothing based on how they personally returned i.e apparently whatever happened with Player B's serves ( i.e. player A's returns ) Player A would still have had an initial handicap of minus 12.
Thank you for your thoughts as I said still all a bit over my head.
When you say how they personally returned the serves, whatever happened with Player A's returns, I took him to mean the final win or lose result of the ensuing individual rally after Player B's serve ? Ditto all the remaining Service Games, serves and rallies of both players.
Apologies if I've got it wrong which is more than likely....

I simply meant that the final win / loss result in all A's return / B's serve points has played no account in that initial handicap rating for A.

His handicap rating has purely been calculated based of the result of his serve points ( and the same for B ).

Given any rating / handicap must surely fundamentally take account of ability in BOTH service and return games, that handicap / rating is no real reflection at all of A's OVERALL ability. So it is far from fit for any purpose as it stands.

To link it to golf, you wouldn't have a rating / handicap that totally ignored what you did in the green, so we couldn't have a tennis rating / handicap system that totally ignored a player's return of serve points.

What we clearly don't know is where your friend was going with this and without that I can only leave it there.

-- Edited by indiana on Friday 11th of December 2015 10:36:57 AM

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

It is difficult to see how a handicap system like golf's can translate effectively for tennis; on any given hole you either beat, draw with or lose to "old man bogey" par and reckon up after 18 holes to see how you've done gross and/or net of handicap; and your handicap is adjusted by fractions as you go along during the season AGAINST THE COURSE(S). That you may beat everyone else on any given day is coincidental.

As you have said already Indy there is only a W or a L at the end of a tennis match. You might be playing out of your skin but still lose and get no tangible reward; in golf you would probably be rewarded with a handicap cut and the attendant bragging rights; in tennis just gnashing of teeth (but maybe the added resolve to beat the blighter next time!).

Whilst the idea of a tennis handicap system is a worthy thought (I seem to remember some club tournaments where the better players might start each game at -15 so would need to win the first point just to get to love-all [as they usually did plus the next 4!]) it really is hard to imagine how it could work on a scale beyond the confines of informally within a single club. It is totally reliant on how you do against your opponent on the day rather than how you do against "the course".

Mind you, with the recent Tie-Break Tens junket maybe your old pal was onto something Arcadian; ditch all the old scoring system in tennis and just play best of [think of a number] points to determine the winner! Could call it Twenty20 maybe? ;)

Arcadian · Improver

Ah with you now thanks told you I'd get it wrong somewhere !

Interesting as I seem to remember him mentioning this Server only aspect once, and I think saying that the Receiver of the serve needs to be in there somewhere too which is what I think you're saying ?

So would it be possible to insert a similar Receiver handicap rating system in there as well....?

Fingers tightly crossed as I'm sure he's listening ! smile

vohor · Grand Slam Champion

Once you have a Server handicap and a Receiver handicap (and maybe a Combined handicap), what then though? In golf you can apply your handicap against the course; in tennis how would you apply your handicap in the context of a match, I wonder?

Maybe if you were, say, your club's John Isner-type #1 Server (but your club's #100 Receiver) in a "first to 20 points wins handicap" match you'd only be allowed 5 serves and have to receive 15 times in each 20 point cycle; with sliding scales in between those extremes; it could be a format. It would be a bit of fun (and encourage "John Isner" to work on his returning!) but I'm not sure of how popular it would be compared with net score golf competitions.

Thanks for sharing your old friend's idea, though, Arcadian :)

Arcadian · Improver

Thanks for your very interesting reply sounds a great idea ! My pleasure indeed.... aww

Perhaps it could be something one's local club could use as a fun and relaxing alternative as well, possibly using the Round Robin system ? I mean the very idea of playing someone of his standard who will now have to go through what we always have to go through facing players of his standard is nothing short of awesome !

I mean what if he loses through nerves !!!!

Whatever happens I really am very grateful for your interest Vohor and everyone else as I know he'd worked on it for years, so I'm sure he'll already be dancing on Cloud 9 to have got this far - oops sorry 100 ! aww

indiana · Tennis legend

Arcadian wrote:
Ah with you now thanks told you I'd get it wrong somewhere !
Interesting as I seem to remember him mentioning this Server only aspect once, and I think saying that the Receiver of the serve needs to be in there somewhere too which is what I think you're saying ?
So would it be possible to insert a similar Receiver handicap rating system in there as well....?
Fingers tightly crossed as I'm sure he's listening !

The obvious place to start on a Receiver Rating is the initial A vs B match with their receiver ratings just being the reverse of the other's serve one.

Player A serving to B was A 44 points B 56 points, difference minus 12. Player B serving to Player A was B 54 points A 46 points, difference plus 8.

So we have Handicap Ratings :

Player A : Serve Minus 12, Return Minus 8

Player B : Serve Plus 8 , Return Plus 12

Then continue to play more players over a similar set of 100 serve and return sequences, players of naturally different serve and return strengths.

eg. play a second player, add the serve and return data to the first match but then divide by 2, play 3, total and divide by 3 etc.

Play ten players and have data : When serving : Won 422 points, Lost 578, difference minus 156. When returning : Won 537 points, Lost 463, difference plus 74. Divide by 10 and we have :

Handicap Rating : Serve Minus 15.6, Return 7.4

Have maybe some minimum number of handicap opponent data to set an 'official' handicap based say on a moving average, old handicap scores getting dropped, New ones added So the handicap ratings are developing.

How the handicap setting opponents are selected is less clear ( tennis opponents are much more variable than golf courses ) is unclear and how the handicap applied, also so, though interesting thoughts from vohor. But something to work on further ...

-- Edited by indiana on Friday 11th of December 2015 03:44:36 PM

paulisi · Tennis legend

Seems a bit complex.

Go simple and have a first to 25pts, 2 serves each before alternating.

The handicap would be added to your score., so if you were playing a player approx 5 shots better than you, you would start the match 5-0 up.

The issue would be getting to the initial handicap. From then on, wins and loses in handicap matches would lead to adjustments in handicaps, as in golf.

Fairly simple, but I suspect this can be developed.