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General election/politics


JonH comes home wrote:
Tanaqui wrote:

As I understand it, the original immigration tribunal ruled she"s "a citizen of Bangladesh by descent", although I think she wasn't recognised as a Bangladeshi citizen by Bangladesh at that point and I seem to recall the government of Bangladesh making some diplomatic noises that suggested they wouldn't grant her Bangladeshi citizenship. (Though I haven't dug up a source on that with just a quick poke around.)

 



-- Edited by Tanaqui on Friday 23rd of February 2024 03:44:29 PM


 Thanks Tanaqui - which makes me wonder, if Bangladesh and the UK say we both don't want her, she's yours...how does that get decided? What is the higher body that rules, something within the UN? Given that someone can't be made state-less, and if both candidate countries don't want someone, there needs to be some process or legal body that can eventually rule. Putting aside Begum, for anyone.

Or?  


 No. Let's assume that she had both nationalities legit, then the GB has just rescinded the GB one which means Bangladesh can't rescind theirs (as that would infringe Art 15 UDHR) and make her stateless. First come, first served really.

There's no question of some higher authority making any decision, to arbitrate effectively between the two. These are national decisions. As long as they don't infringe international law, no one can interfere.

Of course, the open question of the Bangladeshi nationality is another question but as the judges said, in their eyes they are there to look at the technical side of things, not in practice i.e. if she's entitled to Bangladeshi nationality then GB has aced within the rules in what they've done - it's not up to GB to anticipate that Bangladesh are going to be difficult or whatever in honouring their rules to give her nationality.

 



-- Edited by Coup Droit on Friday 23rd of February 2024 05:30:17 PM

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Coup Droit wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:
Tanaqui wrote:

As I understand it, the original immigration tribunal ruled she"s "a citizen of Bangladesh by descent", although I think she wasn't recognised as a Bangladeshi citizen by Bangladesh at that point and I seem to recall the government of Bangladesh making some diplomatic noises that suggested they wouldn't grant her Bangladeshi citizenship. (Though I haven't dug up a source on that with just a quick poke around.)

 



-- Edited by Tanaqui on Friday 23rd of February 2024 03:44:29 PM


 Thanks Tanaqui - which makes me wonder, if Bangladesh and the UK say we both don't want her, she's yours...how does that get decided? What is the higher body that rules, something within the UN? Given that someone can't be made state-less, and if both candidate countries don't want someone, there needs to be some process or legal body that can eventually rule. Putting aside Begum, for anyone.

Or?  


 No. Let's assume that she had both nationalities legit, then the GB has just rescinded the GB one which means Bangladesh can't rescind theirs (as that would infringe Art 15 UDHR) and make her stateless. First come, first served really.

There's no question of some higher authority making any decision, to arbitrate effectively between the two. These are national decisions. As long as they don't infringe international law, no one can interfere.

Of course, the open question of the Bangladeshi nationality is another question but as the judges said, in their eyes they are there to look at the technical side of things, not in practice i.e. if she's entitled to Bangladeshi nationality then GB has aced within the rules in what they've done - it's not up to GB to anticipate that Bangladesh are going to be difficult or whatever in honouring their rules to give her nationality.

 



-- Edited by Coup Droit on Friday 23rd of February 2024 05:30:17 PM


 So, and thanks, does that mean that Bangladesh is now trumped - they cant deny her citizenship as we got there first?



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Agreed, CD.

And the UK government has the right under UK law to strip someone of their citizenship even if it leaves them stateless (and acted with the view Begum wouldn't actually be stateless because of her right by descent to become a Bangladeshi citizen).

As I understand it, Begum's lawyers aren't arguing on grounds the UK isn't allowed to make her stateless or even that she doesn't necessarily have Bangladeshi citizenship, but are arguing the UK didn't apply the UK law correctly (primarily by not considering her as a trafficking victim), hence further appeals in her case will go to the Supreme Court and, probably, the ECHR if necessary.

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JonH comes home wrote:

So, and thanks, does that mean that Bangladesh is now trumped - they cant deny her citizenship as we got there first?


I think they still can, but all that will likely happen is that they'll get the diplomatic equivalent of a frowny face from the UN. Maybe a disapproving resolution or a sternly worded statement from the UNHCR. The UN has very little in the way of enforcement powers for anything at all.



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Tanaqui wrote:

Agreed, CD.

And the UK government has the right under UK law to strip someone of their citizenship even if it leaves them stateless (and acted with the view Begum wouldn't actually be stateless because of her right by descent to become a Bangladeshi citizen).

As I understand it, Begum's lawyers aren't arguing on grounds the UK isn't allowed to make her stateless or even that she doesn't necessarily have Bangladeshi citizenship, but are arguing the UK didn't apply the UK law correctly (primarily by not considering her as a trafficking victim), hence further appeals in her case will go to the Supreme Court and, probably, the ECHR if necessary.


 I don't quite agree with this - I think the UK knows that they don't have the right to make someone stateless - international law is clear. Obviously, Parliamentary sovereignty means that they CAN pass any law they like but, short of having a directly contradictory domestic statute (as opposed to simply a claim by the Home Office), the courts cannot act against international law. (And even this is a hot topic for lawyers)

The Home Office has never stripped a purely British national of their nationality - and (IMO) they never would. 

However, the grey area of Begum being, technically, a national of another country, under that country's rules, even if she hadn't taken advantage of her rights to apply for it, gave them plenty of room to argue their case. Bangladesh can now do as they like. However, on a practical basis, she won't be admitted to Bangladesh (as she has no passport to fly) and so can't go and apply there, and there's no Bangladeshi embassy in Syria so she can't apply there either. So, really, Bangladesh have nothing to worry about. 



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Wow. Truss befriends Bannon, nods to Robinson being called a hero and goes flat out MAGA for the Uk.

x.com/lukecooper100/status/1761097211239153835

Scary.

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JonH comes home wrote:

Wow. Truss befriends Bannon, nods to Robinson being called a hero and goes flat out MAGA for the Uk.

x.com/lukecooper100/status/1761097211239153835

Scary.


I saw that.  Asked Steve Bannon if he would help Farage sort out the Tory party, yet she is still a Tory MP and retains the whip.

And then we have Bravermann in the Telegraph making statements like "the Islamists are in charge of Britain".

It's all the Tories have left. The breed hatred. They breed division. They are trying to invent a common enemy in the hope people will unite to fight them. There is no attempt whatsoever to bring people together and they have given up on actually trying to run the country.

Edit

And then we have Lee Anderson saying "Islamists have got control of Khan and theyve got control of London,"

Sajid Javid responding by saying it's "a ridiculous thing to say".

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1761140655529562570

I am not saying in anyway that all Tories are fascists, but the Tory party has become a haven for the fascist element that exists within the country.  It has infected the party to an even greater degree than antisemitism infected the Labour party.



-- Edited by Bob in Spain on Saturday 24th of February 2024 08:40:15 AM

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JonH comes home wrote:

Wow. Truss befriends Bannon, nods to Robinson being called a hero and goes flat out MAGA for the Uk.

x.com/lukecooper100/status/1761097211239153835

Scary.


 She started doing that (if slightly less obviously) a few weeks back when she was part of the launch of the "PopCons". (I think it stands for Popular Conservatives, but it's very much Populist Conservatives.) I think Farage popped up at that launch, along with a bunch of other people well known for fascist/fascist-adjacent views,



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JonH comes home wrote:

Wow. Truss befriends Bannon, nods to Robinson being called a hero and goes flat out MAGA for the Uk.

x.com/lukecooper100/status/1761097211239153835

Scary.


 Gawd, unlike so often in the past, she looks very comfortable in her own skin there   

That both the US and the UK have so many millions of folk that lead and follow such lines is indeed scary. Worrying times ahead.



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Begum is almost certainly going to appeal to the Supreme Court

And there's a fair chance she'll win

It slightly depends which five judges she gets

But the Supreme Court are more likely to be 'brave' and tell the government they've got the law wrong

As for Truss, it beggars belief

But I read she was giving a speech in a b*mmed out motel, to largely empty seats, and people going 'but who's Liz Truss' and the couple of guys at the back getting up 2 mins in, saying: 'I've no idea she is and I'd rather go and play the slots', and then they both left
It made my day
(And I know she's probably got paid some ridiculous sum for it but, given who's paying, that made me laugh too)

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On the subject of Lettuce Liz (also apparently known as the Human Hand Grenade...), the economically illiterate, miserable excuse for a human being was also apparently known to City traders during the run-up to her selection as PM as "Daggers" (explanation:  Dagenham, two stops beyond Barking...[on the District Line]).  wink



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Bob in Spain wrote:
JonH comes home wrote:

Wow. Truss befriends Bannon, nods to Robinson being called a hero and goes flat out MAGA for the Uk.

x.com/lukecooper100/status/1761097211239153835

Scary.


..

Edit

And then we have Lee Anderson saying "Islamists have got control of Khan and theyve got control of London,"

Sajid Javid responding by saying it's "a ridiculous thing to say".

https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1761140655529562570

I am not saying in anyway that all Tories are fascists, but the Tory party has become a haven for the fascist element that exists within the country.  It has infected the party to an even greater degree than antisemitism infected the Labour party.



-- Edited by Bob in Spain on Saturday 24th of February 2024 08:40:15 AM


Lee Anderson has now been suspended from the Tory Party for his comments.  Not a moment too soon.



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