The Times and other media

OldEchoMan · Social player

RE: The Times

Count Zero · Tennis legend

OldEchoMan wrote:

In the very near future - perhaps by the end of the week - the old Times website will be closing down in favour of the new one, to which you will have to register - www.thetimes.co.uk By the end of the month, some of the articles will be behind a paywall, for which you will have to invest some of your hard-earned pennies to read. I am not sure yet whether tennis will come free or not. We shall see!!
Just arrived at Queen's from Paris and hopeful of seeing some encouraging Brtish performances.

at least it seems then the whole site wont be behind a paywall.

i'm sure a lot of interested observes are waiting to see how the times fares, the news on the net can't stay free forever in the current format though so somewhere somthing will have to give.

i wonder if at some point there will be an agreement on collective charges covering more than just the times but several papers.

from a personal prespective i hope the tennis remains free :)

steven · Tennis legend

OEM on the Wimbledon WCs:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article7145717.ece

Count Zero · Tennis legend

The LTA's criteria really have turned into a joke, only 1 player met the criteria and he was not awarded one. in fact it would seem he was not even recommended for one, so i think the LTA should reword their criteria:

must be 250,
must agree to be at the beck and call at any time of the night and day for messers Draper, Martens & Smith,
must be prepared to shoulder blame for others failings.
must be prepared to play DC, despite being told on numerous occasions you weren't fit to wear the shirt and we never want you again.

does that about cover it. Of course there are 3 left, the immediate thought would be the winner of Boggo/Dimitrov could be inline.

steven · Tennis legend

^^^^

[echo]what the Count said[/echo]

Still, quite an achievement by the wild card wallahs to get the Count and I to agree completely on something ... ashamed

-- Edited by steven on Tuesday 8th of June 2010 08:51:39 AM

Count Zero · Tennis legend

the other thing i dot get is that when they set the criteria where they expecting miracles?

Boggo was the only one who was practically guaranteed to be in, Ward and Evo both had big points to defend with neither showing the form you'd think they would need to do that. Josh also not showing any real form either.

So the only one really was Baker, and even he didn't manage it despite the LTA pulling strings to help him out (how much do you think the LTA would help Boggo if he forgot to enter a tournament on time?).

steven · Tennis legend

I think they felt they had to set the criteria high enough to minimise the flak from the media while still leaving them open to interpretation.

I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing for Boggo to go through qualifying - if he made it through, it wouldn't guarantee him a winnable R1 draw, but at least he might feel different about it (more like he belonged) and as a side-benefit (albeit not a very important one) he'd be in a stronger position with the media too, in the same way that he was getting pretty nice comments from the commentators yesterday after having qualified at Queen's.

However, he's met the 250 criterion by some distance and he is our no. 2, also by some distance, so it seems churlish to me to deny him a WC and what's most frustrating of all about it (whether the ultimate decision turns out to be good or not) is the strong impression that who is put forward for a WC depends far more on "what's going to assuage the media" than what's actually right for the players.

What's even sadder about that is that we all know the media's going to give them a kicking anyway, so they can't do anything about that (at least not in the short term), so why not ignore that consideration and target whatever will give us the best chance of getting more than one player in to R2 instead? (I realise people may not agree what that is, obviously!)

Looking on the bright side, we might have 10 GB men in qualifying. Surely at least one of them will get draw that they could realistically navigate their way through.

-- Edited by steven on Tuesday 8th of June 2010 09:20:24 AM

Count Zero · Tennis legend

i guess you are right then. it would seem Baker is the only one who's ranking would get him into the qualies, so is it right to give WC's to players who cant even make the Q cut on their own?

Still it was a bare faced lie by the LTA; they made a statement that said we will recommend you if you are top 250. they didn't put any disclaimers with it. Even if Alex didn't expect to get recommended that's not the point, the LTA once again made a statement then failed to stick by it.

Steven we all know your dream, a Wimbledon draw of 128 Brits :) prob not going to happen tho.

steven · Tennis legend

Count Zero wrote:
Steven we all know your dream, a Wimbledon draw of 128 Brits :) prob not going to happen tho.

LOL no, that would be no fun! Enough Brits to retain a decent amount of home interest through the first week or so and then Muzza winning the title would be enough for me wink

indiana · Tennis legend

Count Zero wrote:

i guess you are right then. it would seem Baker is the only one who's ranking would get him into the qualies, so is it right to give WC's to players who cant even make the Q cut on their own?

Still it was a bare faced lie by the LTA; they made a statement that said we will recommend you if you are top 250. they didn't put any disclaimers with it. Even if Alex didn't expect to get recommended that's not the point, the LTA once again made a statement then failed to stick by it.

Steven we all know your dream, a Wimbledon draw of 128 Brits :) prob not going to happen tho.

Actually Count being pedantic, much as I support Boggo, the LTA didn't lie in that respect. They said "players need to be ranked better than 250...to be recommended..." i.e . it is a necessary condition, but they didn't say that that then automatically meant you would be recommended for a MD WC.

In fact really it's Bakerboy that doesn't go by what they said ( assuming he was an LTA recommendation ). He is neither ranked better than 250 or comes under the "only exception". Of course there were other exceptional matters re illness effecting him, but the LTA shouldn't of been saying "only exception".

And let me be clear, I personally think both Boggo and Baker should have MD WCs.

"Main Draw and qualifyingWe will recommend to the All England Club a list of 8 players to be

considered for either a main draw or qualifying place.

The criteria used is mainly to be based on ranking, recent form, professional

attitude, court surface and behaviour.

Players need to be ranked better than 250 ATP/WTA on the 7

th June rankinglist, to be recommended for a main draw wild card.The only exception to this would be for a younger player who has performedparticularly well prior to the Championships."

-- Edited by indiana on Tuesday 8th of June 2010 01:13:45 PM

Count Zero · Tennis legend

Ok, maybe you are right Indy, but did they mention Davis Cup? no they didn't, and that is the reason they haven't recommended Alex.

RBBOT · Futures qualifying

"Top 250" actually means ~110 - 250 as the top players get in without a wildcard. So there are only 140 spots. I did some rough calculation on the wikipedia populations of countries that are developed enough to have a significant portion of their populations playing tennis, and by my reckoning if the LTA was equally competent at training players as the competing nations, we should only expect an average of 5.5 players in that ranking range. Therefore, being as good as the rest of the world isn't enough - unless we become significantly above average in tennis skill, we will never see 8 main draw wild cards to GB players.

Count Zero · Tennis legend

lengthy quotes from alex here, pss same as the bbc interview

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/7811678/Wimbledon-2010-Alex-Bogdanovic-claims-he-was-denied-wild-card-due-to-Davis-Cup-snub.html

When asked if the LTA or Wimbledon had explained why he was not being given a wild card, Bogdanovic replied: "No, they didn't.

"I was speaking to Leon Smith earlier. The Davis Cup issue came up. He actually asked me in February, saying, 'I want you to play'.

"I just said, 'I want to see how I'm playing at the moment and what my ranking is at the time, and I'm going to make a decision from there'.

"He said, 'Okay, we'll try to give you some wild cards to help you out'. When I told him, I think in Nottingham (last week), that I won't be playing for this tie because I need to get my ranking up, he was obviously disappointed with that.

"He said I wasn't going to get pretty much any wild cards, that even though he doesn't make the decision for the All England Club, that's the All England Club. I said, 'That's fine'."

Bogdanovic insists he is not angry at missing out on a ninth wild card.

"Even though I did meet the criteria, it was their decision," he continued. "They felt like I didn't make use of the wild cards. So I've got to play qualifiers and earn my way into the main draw."

Bogdanovic admitted it was a tough decision not to make himself available for the Davis Cup match.

"I don't know what the story Leon was coming out with was but it's not like I don't want to play for my country," said Bogdanovic.

"It's always been a great honour for me to represent my country. Just because I'm not playing this tie doesn't mean I will not play Davis Cup."

Although Bogdanovic understands the wild-card decision, he is unhappy with the LTA over their reasoning for his funding cut at the end of last season and does not feel supported by the governing body.

"We had a meeting and (player director) Steven Martens basically said the reason for that is I wasn't working hard enough throughout the whole year," he continued.

"I thought that was just so disrespectful because that's very untrue. He said my intensity wasn't good enough and it was something that hurt me a lot, because I'm out there trying to give it my best shot to break the top 100 for the last eight years.

"If it was as easy as that, everyone would be top 100, as good as Andy Murray is. But it's not. He just said, 'You're 25 and you should have been in the top 100'.

"I found out they obviously didn't believe in me anymore. So I knew I had to go out there and get my ranking up. That's the only thing you can do. That's what I'm trying to do."

He added: "I believe I can be a top 100 player. I still have the passion for the game. I'm 26 but I feel like I've got another six or seven years in my tennis career."

steven · Tennis legend

Wow, is he trying to make up for all the 'not saying anything much' interviews at once?! Love it!

Count Zero wrote:
"I don't know what the story Leon was coming out with was

Count Zero wrote:
"I thought that was just so disrespectful because that's very untrue. He said my intensity wasn't good enough and it was something that hurt me a lot, because I'm out there trying to give it my best shot to break the top 100 for the last eight years.

"If it was as easy as that, everyone would be top 100, as good as Andy Murray is. But it's not. He just said, 'You're 25 and you should have been in the top 100'.

So very true. You get into the top 100 by winning Challengers, and if that's so easy, why have all the other Brits not won more Challengers in total than Boggo has won on his own?

Count Zero wrote:
He added: "I believe I can be a top 100 player. I still have the passion for the game. I'm 26 but I feel like I've got another six or seven years in my tennis career."

Sounds like he has the Gicquel model firmly in mind ...

Of course, he'd have made an even better case if he hadn't choked away that first service game today, but unlike the LTA and most of the media (it'll be interesting to see how the media run with this), he does actually tell it how it is.

-- Edited by steven on Tuesday 8th of June 2010 04:42:51 PM

steven · Tennis legend

Press coverage of Boggo today is, sadly, utterly predictable:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-1285115/World-No-166-Alex-Bogdanovic-demands-respect-LTA-funding-cut.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Includes: "Britain's men usually leave the stage to Andy Murray without wasting much time, but Alex Bogdanovic departed the AEGON Championships with a theatrical blast at authority on Tuesday."

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/tennis/3005529/Alex-Its-time-to-Bog-off.html

"He has thrown a strop"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon/7811678/Wimbledon-2010-Alex-Bogdanovic-claims-he-was-denied-wild-card-due-to-Davis-Cup-snub.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/jun/08/alex-bogdanovich-wimbledon

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/tennis/article7146398.ece

"Until yesterday, Bogdanovic has rarely said anything worth printing [true, but today's coverage may unfortunately suggest to him that this wasn't a bad policy after all], but he came out swinging when the subject of his place in the system was raised at another domestic tournament that he departed without troubling the scorers. What sparked the 26-year-old left-hander into a vitriolic attack against the LTA ..."

OEM does make the very fair point that "Bogdanovics shortcomings were once more crystallised at the AEGON Championships at Queens Club, West London, when he ought to have seen that Grigor Dimitrov, the 19-year-old Bulgarian, was as tight as a drum on the verge of a first-round victory but mistrusted his own talents and lost 4-6, 6-3, 6-4."

There's one particular point I'm sure we all remember where that was all too evident. Then again, when you are constantly vilified and scapegoated for the heinous 'crime' of being the 'best of the rest,' is it a big surprise if you get tight in front of big crowds?
--------

My point is - "theatrical," "vitriolic attack," "thrown a strop"? Are these journalists patronising enough to rely on nobody having bothered to watch the BBC interview, or expecting us to believe that what happened in the main presser was completely different?

I watched the interview and just saw someone who, I assume, hasn't had a mass of media training trying to put their case in a calm and friendly way. Yes of course, some of his points can be shot down in flames - we don't expect players to give unbiased views of their own situation and journalists wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't put the other side of the story, but to describe the way he put his points across in those ways is preposterous.

Is it really that unreasonable to object to Martens giving lack of effort as the reason for the funding cut (if that is the main reason he gave) when he had only seen him play twice last year and if Boggo genuinely believes he is doing his best? It would be nice to see those in charge of the men's game (and getting paid, no doubt, many times the maximum funding any of the players ever get) putting in the effort of taking a bit more of an interest in the players - e.g. there were reports that Martens and other LTA coaches were in Paris when only Ashley Hewitt was left in a competition there and masses of Brits were involved in the Challenger in Nottingham. (Obviously it wouldn't be fair to tar all of the LTA with this brush - Leon Smith, for example, does seem to be making a fair bit of effort to keep track of his charges since he got his new job)

Also (from the Guardian) Alex is reported to have said:

"if you can't be in the <AEGON> team, then how can someone want you to play for your country? To play Davis Cup, it's different. You're playing for a team and you want to feel like the team has the backing, supports you, believes in you."

Sounds fair enough to me!

Clearly if he hadn't played that dodgy first service game against Dimi and had come through the 3rd set, it would have been a better time to make the comments he did, but he did actually qualify for Queen's, which was no mean feat, and there's no excuse for the hatchet job that's been done on him yet again.

In my view, the most thoughtful bit of writing about this on any newspaper site today comes from Freda M in the Times comments:

"So Alex Bogdanovic suddenly changes from being dull and unnoteworthy to making vitriolic attacks. Please, cut the hyperbole, Bogdanovic does not do vitriol. He calmly answers questions asked by a journalist who, regardless of the response, will use them to attack the softest of soft targets, a British tennis player trying to scrape a living and earning money that most people wouldn't get out of bed for and certainly wouldn't put in the hours of dedicated training required. These players forgo many things others of their age take for granted yet they are portrayed as parasites. It is shameful.

The interview with Bogdanovic highlighted the pressures of someone competing at the challenger level and it is this which is worth reporting rather than sensationalist angle taken by the columnist."

The bit in bold was the thing that most strongly came across to me watching the interview too.

So is Freda M someone here? I can't think who it might be if it is.