Remarkable non-GB performances

RJA · Hall of fame

RE: Remarkable non-GB performances

paulisi · Tennis legend

Miriambee wrote:
Allertova won it 7-5 6-2.

She is down to play one of the 25k's in GB, which if she has a decent run, move her to the leading singles winner in main draws this season.

DF · Tennis legend

Coric has taken the first set off Nadal 6-2 in thr QFinal at Basel

Madeline · Admin:Moderator + Tennis Legend

And the second in a tiebreak! I know Nadal has health problems, but still. . . a 17 year-old?

Bob in Spain · Tennis legend

Madeline wrote:
And the second in a tiebreak! I know Nadal has health problems, but still. . . a 17 year-old?

Play off for DC last year in Croatia when Coric played Andy. Will never forget that 57 stroke rally in the opening game. (Or was it 59). Easy to see that Coric was a remarkable talent, even then. He isn't a Brit, but I am happy for him anyway.

korriban · Challenger level

Bob in Spain wrote:
Madeline wrote:
And the second in a tiebreak! I know Nadal has health problems, but still. . . a 17 year-old?
Play off for DC last year in Croatia when Coric played Andy. Will never forget that 57 stroke rally in the opening game. (Or was it 59). Easy to see that Coric was a remarkable talent, even then. He isn't a Brit, but I am happy for him anyway.

Josh Sapwell might be feeling pretty good about his win over Coric in the U14 Orange Bowl final some years back, right about now. But having watched the whole of that match on replay 2 years ago (it's still available on Youtube I think) the difference between them was stark even then. One player (Coric) going for it on almost every point trying to win the match on his terms, but suffering because of far inferior size and physical attributes and making errors because of his postivity. The other (Sapwell) being very steady, looking not to lose the match, and having more strength and stamina. I suspect it was of no consequence whatsoever to Coric's coach that he lost the match, but everything the way he carried out his forward-looking battle plan. It may well turn out to be the highlight of Sapwell's career, but let's hope there's much more to come.

I'm sure Coric is a special talent indeed, but what is also of note is his obvious power, speed and endurance that have come from literally nowhere in the last 2 years......the amount of work he must have put in at the gym is almost unbelievable......he has become almost Nadal-esque in stature.

Will any of our young men have put in quite so much work off the court? Is it REALLY just about talent. Clearly not.

-- Edited by korriban on Friday 24th of October 2014 09:59:31 PM

BeefyDeedz · Pro player

The match was great fun to watch and it was awesome to see Coric beat Nadal, no matter Nadal's problems. As Korriban has said, he has considerable size and power. But above all, I was most pleased to see that Mr. Coric seems to be extremely motivated, yet humble and respectful. And above tennis talent, those are personality traits that can only consolidate success.

RJA · Hall of fame

korriban wrote:
Bob in Spain wrote:
Madeline wrote:
And the second in a tiebreak! I know Nadal has health problems, but still. . . a 17 year-old?
Play off for DC last year in Croatia when Coric played Andy. Will never forget that 57 stroke rally in the opening game. (Or was it 59). Easy to see that Coric was a remarkable talent, even then. He isn't a Brit, but I am happy for him anyway.
Josh Sapwell might be feeling pretty good about his win over Coric in the U14 Orange Bowl final some years back, right about now. But having watched the whole of that match on replay 2 years ago (it's still available on Youtube I think) the difference between them was stark even then. One player (Coric) going for it on almost every point trying to win the match on his terms, but suffering because of far inferior size and physical attributes and making errors because of his postivity. The other (Sapwell) being very steady, looking not to lose the match, and having more strength and stamina. I suspect it was of no consequence whatsoever to Coric's coach that he lost the match, but everything the way he carried out his forward-looking battle plan. It may well turn out to be the highlight of Sapwell's career, but let's hope there's much more to come.
I'm sure Coric is a special talent indeed, but what is also of note is his obvious power, speed and endurance that have come from literally nowhere in the last 2 years......the amount of work he must have put in at the gym is almost unbelievable......he has become almost Nadal-esque in stature.
Will any of our young men have put in quite so much work off the court? Is it REALLY just about talent. Clearly not.

I first saw Coric play when he was 15. It was obvious then that he was going to be a very, very good player and it was equally obvious then that he was more mature and more professional than the vast majority of young British players. As you say his physical progression has been extremely impressive but then if you look at his facebook page about half the pictures he posts on there are of him in the gym so it is perhaps not surprising.

It is interesting that for the last few years we have mostly accepted as fact that changes in the game have made it all but impossible for teenagers to breakthrough. In the past 6 months Kyrgios, Coric and Zverev have seriously challenged that assumption.

PS: I saw Sapwell play at Wrexham about 6 weeks ago and he was certainly going for his shots although he did appear to be a bit of a head case.

Spectator · All-time great

It's interesting that all of the teens that have broken through are both very good players and very tall: looking them up Zverev is 6'6", Kyrgios 6'4", Kokkinakis is 6'5" and Coric is the outlier at a mere 6'1". Kozlov and Nishioka, two similarly aged teens who are unquestionably very professional and very talented, but haven't quite broken through in quite the same way (though Nishioka comes close) - - are respectively 5'10" and 5'7". Yes, professionalism and maturity play a large part - but as someone once said, "You can't teach height."

Before one condemns our young men, it's worth noting that. Yes, I'm aware that Golding - who clearly has been given the gifts and talent to succeed, if he were to put in the work and tame his temper - is 6'2". And comparisons may to some extent be fair there. But some others have not been so tall at a young age. And some have never had a growth spurt: the hard-working and gifted Mr Cox is a good player and has a good career. But imagine if he had been 6'6" instead of 5'7"!

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Interesting point.

And yet, on the other hand, the tallest guys currently in the top echelons (Isner/Anderson etc.) are the ones who took the longest to make the top level.

I wonder if it's just fluke (the numbers are always quite small) or to do with timing. i.e. what height were Zverev and the Aussie Ks when they were 15 ? And was it sudden growth or inching up nice and gradually ? It usually takes guys at least a couple of years to really assimilate their new height/size of feet etc., especially when it's a real sudden growth spurt. Were the guys practically full grown then ? or not till they were 17 plus ?

And, yes, I've always thought as Britain as being a country of relatively tall people - not quite on the Dutch level but pretty tall all the same. And yet we have very few 6 ft+ tennis players . . . strange.

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

Coup Droit wrote:

And, yes, I've always thought as Britain as being a country of relatively tall people - not quite on the Dutch level but pretty tall all the same. And yet we have very few 6 ft+ tennis players . . . strange.

Well Tim Henman was pretty tall. However, since then our national obsession with identifying talent very young has favoured the smaller more compact kids. They are just more balanced, co-ordinate and settled in their own bodies and thus do better in most of the assessment tests. Clearly some may go on to have a late growth spurt and become giants but I think this has contributed to the fact that many of our upcoming players are a bit on the short side. Apparently in the last couple of years this has been taken into account in some way.

I also think the whole experiment with mini-tennis ratings and rankings stops some of the bigger kids coming in a year or two later when they can cope better with the sport.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

I agree, The Optimist.

In France, the smaller, agile juniors always do comparatively better than the taller, stronger ones, and it distorts the results/assessments.

Which was why Spectator's point is interesting, namely that obviously, in some other countries, height (and the klutziness that often goes with it for a few years) is compensated for somehow.

However, it's also true that, a decade or so back, France had a policy of only selecting 'tall' kids for their elite squad i.e. they ignored results as such and just chose big kids (assessed the height of their parents too). This was a disaster and most certainly didn't turn out a crop of excellent tall players (although there were other problems with the policies at the time so one can't say it was all due to height selection).

The Optimist · ATP qualifying

Personally, I don't think any of the talent selection systems which look for specific physical attributes or skill sets work very well, especially when applied to really quite young juniors. I feel those looking for talent would be better spending most of their time at tournaments, looking at all the age groups looking at how the kids are performing in live situations

Spectator · All-time great

I'm not sure that country systems are relevant for Zverev, given his family background. And Coric seems to have been very much an individual. But it does seem as if Australia is doing something right. Yes, countries can have coincidental runs of great players. But to my mind, they've got too many U23s doing too well for it simply to be a fluke. Someone somewhere seems to be doing a good job of spotting and nurturing talent.

Spectator · All-time great

Since they are not going to get their just rewards, a brief hurrah in this forum for Eric Butorac and Raven Klaasen, two lovely people and fine players, who finished the year No 8 in the doubles, but will not qualify for the WTFs, as Linstedt/Kubot (9th) get in as GS champions ... and will not be 1st alternates, because that goes to Sock/Pospisil, who were 10th, but also GS champions. If the ATP doesn't decide that it is going to have two sets of alternates this year (which is an option), and give both lots the appropriate pay, I shall be quite an unhappy bunny on Mr Butorac and Mr Klaasen's behalf.