Property developers and the death of non league football clubs

Oakland2002 · All-time great

RE: Property developers and the death of non league football clubs

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Interesting, Oakie.

I know nothing about the level in lower tier football in the UK (what actually is 'step' 4 and 5?)

But I'm also often pretty unimpressed with the athletic qualities of our top, 'elite' juniors. (natural ball skills comes under athletic qualities, as well as more basic speed, endurance, reflexes, strength etc. - and also physique)

As you say, I think a lot of money sunk into coaching means those kids often win over more naturally gifted kids because learned technique shows through. And this is a vicious circle because then they're detected, and so get more funding, and so win more etc. etc. (until it all fizzles out, as it was always going to - and people in the junior threads always seem surprised.....)

However, there's also just the overall level of fitness, no matter what they're actual athletic potential is. Which is often pretty poor. And because the parents pay for technique classes, tennis coaches here spend as much time talking as coaching, and nobody kicks the kids out for a run.

What do you see in the football 16-18 year-olds?

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Outside of the English Football League the tiers of football are referred to as steps, as in steps in a pyramid, the top tier is still a national league but below that each step has more leagues soon to be simplified to 1-2-4-8-16 ie 16 leagues at Step 5.

The standard at Step 5 is well above the standard of University Football with only Loughborough University fielding a team at this level. Not to say there are not students playing across the pyramid but it would be unusual to find one above step 3. The National League sides are full time professionals as are most clubs at step 2 ie National League North and South respectively. So there are 6 leagues of professional football in the U.K. 72+24NL1+22NL North +22 NL South (130 teams close to the number of male players who can make a living playing tennis)

The game I watched yesterday at Step 4 (8 Leagues of 20 teams) included 4 or 5 ex pros (Josh Goodalls) one about the same age as Josh who has had a successful career in the lower leagues, another who had played for Arsenal and at least a couple of ex academy players looking for a way back in, others slightly older who have just found their level. 50% were probably academy players as children. The match was played at break neck speed, solid technique (no time to cope with lack of it) no quarter given. You would struggle at this level unless you were the best athlete in your school, you just wouldnt be able to keep up.

Of course there is a massive difference as you move up the steps as a broad base of players gets concentrated. Step 4 is much quicker than 5, and so on. You see the promoted teams almost bewildered by the pace initially, rapidly recruiting better athletes to their squad. Generally the youngsters at schools playing a decent quality of tennis (performance squads) arent even close to being able to complete athletically with their contemporaries who stand a chance of going on to play at this level. These good tennis players would generally be able to thrash every kid in the school from year 9 but probably not be able to get in their year football team.

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Sunday 5th of January 2020 01:49:06 PM

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Interesting. Many thanks, Oakland.

Football is an incredibly demanding sport, athletically.

But fascinating that you see such a marked difference in athletic level in the football and tennis players.

I wonder if that is because football is SO much more competitive (so much more depth in numbers, and the ability of kids to learn technique, easily, in their garden, with their friends, at school etc - almost impossible for tennis players, without an actual tennis court, no matter how much Judy Murray pushes racketball or hitting against a wall - actually quite tricky to find a wall with enough space in most places, anyway).
Or whether more tennis players are more 'snowflake'-y?

I know that the athletic level of club tennis players is MILES higher in France. Because the whole thing is a sport (singles, competitive matches), not a leisure activity (doubles, social matches). And the same applies to most juniors I've seen too (both normal and elite), I think it feeds through, elite level and club level, it's all connected.

Tx again - I'm going to try and find a 'step 4 or 5' match to watch in London one weekend. (I assume I just google it? Would that be the best level to pitch in at, do you think?).

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Just have a look at the Isthmian League website, Step 4 would be Isthmian League South East (SE London/Kent and East Sussex or South Central is a bit wider ie SW London Surrey West Sussex, West London London up into Hertfordshire. Warning it can be a bit lonely gates are usually 100-150 at the city clubs because of the competition, out of town 250 can turn to 4-500 if the club does well. Maldon and Tiptree got 430 and are a treat to watch, 3 points clear despite a 3 point deduction and 4 games in hand in the Northern Division.

Tooting and Mitchams ground (KNK Stadium) I know only too well for all the wrong reasons, they are Step 4, a hard core of fans 100-200 but too big (3K) for this level but a good club playing well and a short walk from Mitcham tram stop... one of their boys up until recently debuted for Charlton on Sunday.

I am extremely biased but a trip to Hamlet is a very good start to watching non league, but lofty step 2 mind! But very accessible East Dulwich BR is 4 minutes to the ground and Denmark Hill 14 minutes (Zone 2) it does get very full on Saturdays so worth getting there at 14:00 and having a pre match drink, perusal of the programme. 14:30 and you will probably still be outside in the Queue and miss kick off. Message me if you decide to go, unfortunately away at Weymouth this weekend.

Coup Droit · Tennis legend

Thanks SO much, Oakie - am just out the door, this minute, but will read it properly later tonight. Tx again.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

It seems, Oakie, that the largest crowd for a non league ever was in fact at Dulwich Hamlet, over 16,000 in 1931. Presumably this is Wembey finals apart!

www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jan/08/what-is-the-highest-attendance-for-a-non-league-game-in-england

Do Nunhead, their opponents that day in the Isthmian League, still exist by the way?

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Nunhead folded 70 yrs ago, highly valued badges! Denis Compton used to play for them!!

There would have still been plenty of room at the old ground with 16K, much bigger gates there for the Olympics in 1948, over 20K and the bare foot national team from I think Ivory Coast. I played on it loads in the 1980s, only university stuff but awful pitch, cinder and railway sleeper (wood) terracing, fun to be in such a large stadium but needed knocking down. At least now the pitch is immaculate although again the stand is past its sell by date and was only built in 1992!

-- Edited by Oakland2002 on Wednesday 8th of January 2020 11:43:44 PM

Oakland2002 · All-time great

You can follow Nunhead FC on Twitter, still linked with Hamlet the account shares information about the history of the club which was a big part of the community in SE London up to the 50s and raises money for youth orientated events, the team original evolved from a working boys home.,

It is supported by like minded Dulwich fans who enjoy exploring Dulwichs history, Nunheads and Hamlets history being tightly linked and very influential in the thriving world of amateur football in the SE right up to the Second World War. Nunhead v Hamlet was our annual Boxing Day fixture! Indeed even Christmas Eve, now that sounds perfect!!

Much more on social media

This is the story of #Nunhead Football Club @nunhead1888.co.uk

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Some cracking FA Vase Cup ties this weekend for the step 5 aficionados out there. Stowmarket Town are the favourites (up against one of 4 SCEFL sides in the last 32). Shockingly generous odds available on Chatham Town given the strength of the league and how well they are playing. If I had been to Weymouth before I would probably go to their game against another strong SECFL side, the amateurs at Corinthian. Should be a corker and a decent crowd (900 + on Boxing Day @ step 5!!!)

I plan to ride the rails this weekend family commitments permitting to get to Worcester City v Coventry United (who probably have the best stand in EFL 2 let alone step 5 but no others!) on Sunday but probably pushing my luck given Weymouth on Saturday.

paulisi · Tennis legend

Worcester play at Bromsgrove.
I think you are getting carried away about their stand...

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

paulisi wrote:
Worcester play at Bromsgrove.
I think you are getting carried away about their stand...

Dont go to the wrong place Oakland!

Harrogate are away to level 5 Darlington, big ground and perhaps a decent crowd. I'd like to see town have a decent run but suspect with the league the target we will rest a large number of players

Oakland2002 · All-time great

I have had the good fortune to go to the real Victoria Ground Bromsgrove on many occasions (when they were plain old Rovers!) and made a special trip to watch City there last season midweek against another Coventry side Coventry Sphinx after a walk over the Malverns, a stunningly beautiful day made the 300 mile round trip and 1-0 loss more tolerable. I have my 1957 FA Cup replica shirt ironed and ready to go for Sunday!

Coventry United have one of the more amazing stadiums in non league, the Butts ground which has one massive stand that holds 3000 seats, nothing else! Only an East Stand. You only need 500 to play in the national league. They share the ground with Cov Bears Rugby League!

Hope you all enjoy your footie this weekend.

Oakland2002 · All-time great

Thank goodness I reconsidered trip no 2. Worcester have already lost a few games as the drainage at Bromsgrove could be better, the ground was wet with more rain overnight, given its a good 3 hrs each way with a pitch inspection at 11:30 i decided not to go. Its been put back to Wednesday but not that optimistic the ground will have dried out.

Weymouth was well worth the trip on Saturday mind. The best non league ground I have been to, friendly fans and a decent match. Even got a point!! Their stadium although modern despite showing a bit of wear definitely fit for EFL 2, the lights may need sorting but a good sized ground that could easily take 6K with everyone getting a view.

JonH comes home · Tennis legend

JonH comes home wrote:
paulisi wrote:
Worcester play at Bromsgrove.
I think you are getting carried away about their stand...
Dont go to the wrong place Oakland!

Harrogate are away to level 5 Darlington, big ground and perhaps a decent crowd. I'd like to see town have a decent run but suspect with the league the target we will rest a large number of players

Town beat Darlington 2-0 with half the team rested and are now into last 16 of Trophy. Draw tomorrow